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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#761 - 2013-03-04 06:42:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
Whereas, now I am able to mine in an unlimited number of systems, have perfect refining at all the stations owned by 14 npc corps (so far) and can manufacture at any npc station, anywhere at all.

Highsec, the best place ever.

Never nothing but joy and happiness in HIGHSEC.

highsec is open for everyone. unlike of your local dirty 0.0 regions Cool

that's why the best people live in high-sec

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Frying Doom
#762 - 2013-03-04 06:57:15 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

And it is not about removing the NPC slots it is about making those that have out laid the capital on a POS to have a market advantage.


I cannot be in a minority of industrialists when I write that I do not want my manufacturing activities made tethered to my POS. I can't even imagine the increase of logistical difficulty it would be to maintain basic industrial gameplay were this made so. Exponential. If its done wrong, there will be mass unsubs. You already know how fickle some indy guys are. I mean, who thinks up these ideas? Whereas, now I am able to mine in an unlimited number of systems, have perfect refining at all the stations owned by 14 npc corps (so far) and can manufacture at any npc station, anywhere at all. Somehow forcing me to haul all my ore, minerals, and merchandise completely across entire regions back to my POS when it was previously unnecessary is being done for MY advantage? Whatever. I can only speak for myself, but tethering my game to my POS will not help me - its a major nerf. And it feels nothing like balance. It's a kick in the nuts.

I know a POS update is coming and I think the modular POS schematics are beautiful. I was looking forward to it. Then I started reading these threads and I am now considerably less enthusiastic. I seriously spent a whole day ship spinning not even sure if I should bother undocking. As a player who has just invested an entire year laying the foundation for his corp, who worked to build up standings with multiple npc corps - specificially to increase his options - this idea sucks. I really do wish that the plans on relegating high-sec industry to POS's would be laid plain asap. If I've just wasted all that time and my game is about to become unplayable, I certainly wish someone would let me know about that bs sooner rather than later.

YK


Ok so that would just mean with a base 30% refine you would just need a perfect refine and an implant and presto you have a perfect refine but as to the rest the only reason you seem to be able to state why Player owned should not be better than a POS is that you don't want too. Oh and I have characters covering all the governments to allow me a perfect refine any where in the universe but that would not be effected as your refine at an NPC station, if as you said you don't want to use a POS, would still be better than someone who doesn't build up their rep. But someone putting up a hi-sec tower also needs rep or paying someone else who has to put up the towers and that is not a corp to 6.65 but a faction standing.

Now that is great you don't want too, fair enough but having to pay slightly more for manufacturing slots than the cost of those slots on a POS is not a major nerf, it is a balance and it is completely fair as those risking billions in POS's and paying hundreds of millions a month, should have an advantage over those just using a NPC station where they take no risks.

As to unsubs, yes people will unsub over anything, including leaving Hi-sec as it is now.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#763 - 2013-03-04 06:58:54 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
Whereas, now I am able to mine in an unlimited number of systems, have perfect refining at all the stations owned by 14 npc corps (so far) and can manufacture at any npc station, anywhere at all.

Highsec, the best place ever.

Never nothing but joy and happiness in HIGHSEC.

highsec is open for everyone. unlike of your local dirty 0.0 regions Cool

that's why the best people live in high-sec

And here was me thinking that it was because most other places make no sense as you get better rewards with less risk in Hi-sec.

Oh and point 2 on that James 315 is in Hi-sec so your answer really falls short there.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#764 - 2013-03-04 07:57:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years
lol EVE is rife with total and radical changes demanded by players throughout its entire 10 year history

Buff those mining barges even more please.


Barges and even the whole tiericide are a tiny nugget of dust compared to the sweeping consequences of flipping upside down whole regions economy.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#765 - 2013-03-04 08:01:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years
lol EVE is rife with total and radical changes demanded by players throughout its entire 10 year history

Buff those mining barges even more please.


Barges and even the whole tiericide are a tiny nugget of dust compared to the sweeping consequences of flipping upside down whole regions economy.



"If we change things, then things will change! That would be terrible!"



"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#766 - 2013-03-04 08:03:21 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?

Because players aren't capable of moving to POSes. For one, it's troublesome when your POS corp gets wardecced, unlike the miners and PI and industry characters.

Wardecs need a massive nerf before forcing players to use things like POSes will be anywhere resembling "acceptable" (it won't actually be acceptable of course, expect shooting of jita structures) to the highsecers.


Though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a massive nerf to wardecs just on the principle of it.


Before even getting to have a POS, a player has to understand how it works, to have the ISK to buy it and the fuels, to have the standings... Clearly in huge contrast with CCPs attempts getting more newbie friendly tutorials, changing ammo and mod names and so on.

You are not going to force everybody and their dog to POSes like that. There have to exist at least some game features letting new players enter EvE without being insta-flooded with even more contrived mechanics than today. There could be "timed slots" that only accounts younger than X days / months can use at a minimum.


You want to smack people with the day zero choice of either having paid $10 to some third party website and then be "corraled" into a large alliance and have basically a "path" drawn by such alliance officers or joining the game "the regular new guy way" and be kicked in the face till they quit.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#767 - 2013-03-04 08:04:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years
lol EVE is rife with total and radical changes demanded by players throughout its entire 10 year history

Buff those mining barges even more please.


Barges and even the whole tiericide are a tiny nugget of dust compared to the sweeping consequences of flipping upside down whole regions economy.



"If we change things, then things will change! That would be terrible!"



Yeah, CCP NEVER set precedents at implementing buggy and / or crappy features.

You enjoying those new Sov mechanics, eh?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#768 - 2013-03-04 08:07:46 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The only thing I want different are the baby steps and not to completely eradicate hi sec while improving null sec, a concept null sec people are totally impervious to listen to.


Would you suggest that a "release early, release often" approach would work?

For example, start off releasing player-run refineries that work as activity lines and can refine mixtures of ore, as well as reprocessing hardware. Then modify NPC stations to work the same, capable of supporting current levels of use. Then start taking away the NPC station refineries? This could happen over the course of 12 months, in parallel with the removal of other activity slots such as research, invention, manufacturing lines.


That could work, as long as the starter systems still have newbie only NPC research / manufacture slots.

Since I already have an alts network working with POSes, the whole revamp would only make my prices more competitive vs NPCers. Pirate

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#769 - 2013-03-04 09:17:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?

Because players aren't capable of moving to POSes. For one, it's troublesome when your POS corp gets wardecced, unlike the miners and PI and industry characters.

Wardecs need a massive nerf before forcing players to use things like POSes will be anywhere resembling "acceptable" (it won't actually be acceptable of course, expect shooting of jita structures) to the highsecers.


Though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a massive nerf to wardecs just on the principle of it.


Before even getting to have a POS, a player has to understand how it works, to have the ISK to buy it and the fuels, to have the standings... Clearly in huge contrast with CCPs attempts getting more newbie friendly tutorials, changing ammo and mod names and so on.

You are not going to force everybody and their dog to POSes like that. There have to exist at least some game features letting new players enter EvE without being insta-flooded with even more contrived mechanics than today. There could be "timed slots" that only accounts younger than X days / months can use at a minimum.


You want to smack people with the day zero choice of either having paid $10 to some third party website and then be "corraled" into a large alliance and have basically a "path" drawn by such alliance officers or joining the game "the regular new guy way" and be kicked in the face till they quit.

It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't

As to newbies yes there goods will be slightly less competitive than someone with a POS, kind of like it should be if some one has trained up Production efficiency to 5, got faction standings over 5 and is forking out hundreds of millions on a POS.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#770 - 2013-03-04 09:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Frying Doom wrote:
...but having to pay slightly more for manufacturing slots than the cost of those slots on a POS is not a major nerf, it is a balance and it is completely fair as those risking billions in POS's and paying hundreds of millions a month, should have an advantage over those just using a NPC station where they take no risks.


Well, I didn't write anything about the cost of public slots, FD. I did write that forcing industrialists to haul their ore and merchandise across the galaxy to be refined/manufactured at a POS when none of that is currently required is no buff to industry. If industrialists are supposed to become full-time freighter pilots, the cost of a public slot is going to be the least of their problems.

YK
Frying Doom
#771 - 2013-03-04 10:05:25 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
...but having to pay slightly more for manufacturing slots than the cost of those slots on a POS is not a major nerf, it is a balance and it is completely fair as those risking billions in POS's and paying hundreds of millions a month, should have an advantage over those just using a NPC station where they take no risks.


Well, I didn't write anything about the cost of public slots, FD. I did write that forcing industrialists to haul their ore and merchandise across the galaxy to be refined/manufactured at a POS when none of that is currently required is no buff to industry. If industrialists are supposed to become full-time freighter pilots, the cost of a public slot is going to be the least of their problems.

YK

No I however did a lot in a thread naught on the subject about 2 months ago.

As to hauling all over the galaxy that is only if you are using a POS and don't wish to move it for what ever reason and subsequently you also don't wish to max your refining skills. So your argument makes about as much sense as someone complaining as to why a newbie cannot do a max refine from day 1 or why they need PE 5 to be efficient manufacturing.

And yes a higher cost would need to be put in place on NPC slots to make the POS competitive.

And so what it actually is, is a buff for industrialists and a minor nerf to part time industrialists.

If I for example could get 100% refine at my refinery that I am paying for why wouldn't I use it? Why would I haul all over the galaxy? or alternatively if I could get 100% refine by maxing my skills and having a high enough rep, but did not want a POS why wouldn't I use it?

I have no idea where you got this sensationalist idea of freighting stuff all over the galaxy.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#772 - 2013-03-04 10:21:34 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
...but having to pay slightly more for manufacturing slots than the cost of those slots on a POS is not a major nerf, it is a balance and it is completely fair as those risking billions in POS's and paying hundreds of millions a month, should have an advantage over those just using a NPC station where they take no risks.


Well, I didn't write anything about the cost of public slots, FD. I did write that forcing industrialists to haul their ore and merchandise across the galaxy to be refined/manufactured at a POS when none of that is currently required is no buff to industry. If industrialists are supposed to become full-time freighter pilots, the cost of a public slot is going to be the least of their problems.

YK

No I however did a lot in a thread naught on the subject about 2 months ago.

As to hauling all over the galaxy that is only if you are using a POS and don't wish to move it for what ever reason and subsequently you also don't wish to max your refining skills. So your argument makes about as much sense as someone complaining as to why a newbie cannot do a max refine from day 1 or why they need PE 5 to be efficient manufacturing.

And yes a higher cost would need to be put in place on NPC slots to make the POS competitive.

And so what it actually is, is a buff for industrialists and a minor nerf to part time industrialists.

If I for example could get 100% refine at my refinery that I am paying for why wouldn't I use it? Why would I haul all over the galaxy? or alternatively if I could get 100% refine by maxing my skills and having a high enough rep, but did not want a POS why wouldn't I use it?

I have no idea where you got this sensationalist idea of freighting stuff all over the galaxy.


Because people do not currently need to mine in the system where their POS is anchored. I, for example, operate all over the map. To eliminate transporting goods/ore to my POS, I'd be forced to only mine in that single system. In fact everyone will be forced to mine in a single system or at best, have their range hugely limited. What am I supposed to do? Unanchor and relocate my POS 4 times a day? Some people wait months for a particular moon. And there are only so many moons.

So I'll be busy freightering my ****!

You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff.

You can stop doing me favors any time.

YK
Frying Doom
#773 - 2013-03-04 10:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Yonis Kador wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
...but having to pay slightly more for manufacturing slots than the cost of those slots on a POS is not a major nerf, it is a balance and it is completely fair as those risking billions in POS's and paying hundreds of millions a month, should have an advantage over those just using a NPC station where they take no risks.


Well, I didn't write anything about the cost of public slots, FD. I did write that forcing industrialists to haul their ore and merchandise across the galaxy to be refined/manufactured at a POS when none of that is currently required is no buff to industry. If industrialists are supposed to become full-time freighter pilots, the cost of a public slot is going to be the least of their problems.

YK

No I however did a lot in a thread naught on the subject about 2 months ago.

As to hauling all over the galaxy that is only if you are using a POS and don't wish to move it for what ever reason and subsequently you also don't wish to max your refining skills. So your argument makes about as much sense as someone complaining as to why a newbie cannot do a max refine from day 1 or why they need PE 5 to be efficient manufacturing.

And yes a higher cost would need to be put in place on NPC slots to make the POS competitive.

And so what it actually is, is a buff for industrialists and a minor nerf to part time industrialists.

If I for example could get 100% refine at my refinery that I am paying for why wouldn't I use it? Why would I haul all over the galaxy? or alternatively if I could get 100% refine by maxing my skills and having a high enough rep, but did not want a POS why wouldn't I use it?

I have no idea where you got this sensationalist idea of freighting stuff all over the galaxy.


Because people do not currently need to mine in the system where their POS is anchored. I, for example, operate all over the map. To eliminate transporting goods/ore to my POS, I'd be forced to only mine in that single system. In fact everyone will be forced to mine in a single system or at best, have their range hugely limited. What am I supposed to do? Unanchor and relocate my POS 4 times a day? Some people wait months for a particular moon. And there are only so many moons.

So I'll be busy freightering my ****!

You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff.

You can stop doing me favors any time.

YK

So what your saying is that because you are to lazy to move your POS or put up another small near where you are mining and you are to lazy to max train your skills you should be rewarded. As that is what the current system is a reward for laziness and a dead road for real industrialists.

Yes it would destroy the game just like it did when the mining barge buff was introduced and all the gankers were saying it would destroy the game.

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#774 - 2013-03-04 10:41:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
....
It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't.....

Then would you agree to this statement?

It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to --- manufacture in Highsec --- and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't.....
-------------------
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#775 - 2013-03-04 10:49:04 UTC
Lazy? What does any of this have to do with being lazy? I'm trying to make isk not play with logistics all day.

"or do you want it fixed so that they are never ending?" Never wrote it. Why do you think I'm working all over the map now?

"if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now..." Dude, some regions are huge. In excess of 30-40 jumps across. I stash identical sets of gear in different areas and travel by shuttle. I'm not fueling/maintaining 4 POS's. Nor should I have to.

But hey, you're right, when I'm not busy engaged in the 2 hrs required to take down/put up my POS 4 times a day and when I'm not busy freightering my goods all across New Eden, I'm sure my profits will skyrocket due to all the extra work.

I look forward to all the riches promised from this obvious buff to industry.

YK
Frying Doom
#776 - 2013-03-04 10:52:50 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
....
It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't.....

Then would you agree to this statement?

It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to --- manufacture in Highsec --- and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't.....
-------------------

close I would naturally add in the words POS and the phrase this is why we need a NPC facility price rise. Otherwise it is just a statement that would be read as the way it is, is good, which it isn't. It gives a industrialists no room to grow.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#777 - 2013-03-04 10:54:24 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff.

You need to stop looking at this from your point of view and look at the bigger picture. Allowing industry to compete in null sec will breathe new life into the area, an area which is very stale at the moment and needs a good shake up.

Unfortunately, in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec, hi-sec industry will need to be nerfed in some way. This will not be good for your present playstyle, however it will be good for the game as a whole.
Frying Doom
#778 - 2013-03-04 10:55:15 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Lazy? What does any of this have to do with being lazy? I'm trying to make isk not play with logistics all day.

"or do you want it fixed so that they are never ending?" Never wrote it. Why do you think I'm working all over the map now?

"if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now..." Dude, some regions are huge. In excess of 30-40 jumps across. I stash identical sets of gear in different areas and travel by shuttle. I'm not fueling/maintaining 4 POS's. Nor should I have to.

But hey, you're right, when I'm not busy engaged in the 2 hrs required to take down/put up my POS 4 times a day and when I'm not busy freightering my goods all across New Eden, I'm sure my profits will skyrocket due to all the extra work.

I look forward to all the riches promised from this obvious buff to industry.

YK

Oh so you would have to max your refining skills.....to do exactly the same thing.

The riches would be there for those that want to out lay the expenditure, as it should be.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#779 - 2013-03-04 11:13:12 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff.

You need to stop looking at this from your point of view and look at the bigger picture. Allowing industry to compete in null sec will breathe new life into the area, an area which is very stale at the moment and needs a good shake up.

Unfortunately, in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec, hi-sec industry will need to be nerfed in some way. This will not be good for your present playstyle, however it will be good for the game as a whole.



Yep, you're correct that it will "not be good" for my "present playstyle," PM. It will end it. But it will also "not be good" for anyone manufacturing in multiple npc stations whether those are in the same region or across space. They'll need to manufacture at their POS and transport goods instead. And it will not be good for anyone who has grinded standings to have perfect refining at multiple npc stations. Those guys will have to freighter the ore to their POS and refine there instead. So I'm pretty sure these changes, if implemented, will "not be good" for a great many folks besides myself. People go all ape-**** when you touch one high slot on their ship - I can't even imgaine the ****storm this will produce. It's a major inconvenience.

You know, when the new UI was slapped on Tranquility I was told to get over it. When my Prophecy BC was just neutered and turned into a drone ship, I was told to get over it. If I just wasted an entire year of gameplay grinding mechanics that will soon be rendered worthless and am about to be told to get over it again, at some point, there will come a day where even I won't.

I enjoy the game as much as anyone but my bs threshold has never been particularly high.

YK
Frying Doom
#780 - 2013-03-04 11:18:37 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
You guys can call this tragic idea a buff all day, but it would destroy my game. No sensationalism. But that's sure not what I consider a buff.

You need to stop looking at this from your point of view and look at the bigger picture. Allowing industry to compete in null sec will breathe new life into the area, an area which is very stale at the moment and needs a good shake up.

Unfortunately, in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec, hi-sec industry will need to be nerfed in some way. This will not be good for your present playstyle, however it will be good for the game as a whole.



Yep, you're correct that it will "not be good" for my "present playstyle," PM. It will end it. But it will also "not be good" for anyone manufacturing in multiple npc stations whether those are in the same region or across space. They'll need to manufacture at their POS and transport goods instead. And it will not be good for anyone who has grinded standings to have perfect refining at multiple npc stations. Those guys will have to freighter the ore to their POS and refine there instead. So I'm pretty sure these changes, if implemented, will "not be good" for a great many folks besides myself. People go all ape-**** when you touch one high slot on their ship - I can't even imgaine the ****storm this will produce. It's a major inconvenience.

You know, when the new UI was slapped on Tranquility I was told to get over it. When my Prophecy BC was just neutered and turned into a drone ship, I was told to get over it. If I just wasted an entire year of gameplay grinding mechanics that will soon be rendered worthless and am about to be told to get over it again, at some point, there will come a day where even I won't.

I enjoy the game as much as anyone but my bs threshold has never been particularly high.

YK

If you max your refine and manufacture at an NPC station you would be slightly less competitive than someone using a POS for manufacturing. So the person taking the greater risk and expenditure would be slightly more competitive.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!