These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sharing a good article.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-03-04 00:45:32 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
poor foolish CCP, masters of the universe and yet... slaves to its inhabitants.

You'd rather they ignore us?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#162 - 2013-03-04 00:50:12 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
poor foolish CCP, masters of the universe and yet... slaves to its inhabitants.

You'd rather they ignore us?


yes, mostly. it's really for the best to ignore 99% of user requests because 1% of the userbase are whining.

forums.  serious business.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-03-04 00:55:42 UTC
People getting mad in this thread.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#164 - 2013-03-04 04:30:09 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

Hmm. Looks like my comment that pointed out flaws in his argument was deleted.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#165 - 2013-03-04 04:48:08 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
.......

You can't once they've left or if they never stayed in the first place.

I don't see the problem. From a player's perspective they effectively don't exist. From a developer's perspective these are people who are inevitably going to quit anyway and so are nearly irrelevant to profit.

How relevant they are to profit depends on how long they play before they quit. If they play for a few years, then quit, they are quite relevant to profit. Especially if, on average, they make up a goodly chunk of the player base.

"I don't see the problem. From a player's perspective they effectively don't exist." So why should a player complain about them?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
auraofblade
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-03-04 04:52:47 UTC
I'm a total noob and full carebear to boot (Trying to fix that! Honest!) but I'm honestly rather confused about the whole High vs Null etc. argument. Is the fact that I mine stuff physically preventing you from flying around and blowing up ships? If I make a choice to segregate myself from the rest of the community, am I somehow bringing the entire EVE community down? And inversely, if you like suicide ganking my barge, are you truly causing carebears everywhere to unsub en-masse?

Unless my actions are in direct, intentional conflict with yours, how on earth am I ruining your game experience? And even if they are ruining your experience...isn't this EVE, where s*** is supposed to happen? Are we all not supposed to deal with the s*** and HTFU? Or is the vocal minority just a pack of hypocrites holding different signs?
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#167 - 2013-03-04 05:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jensaro Koraka
CAOD as a metaphor; why safety is also harmful to the long-term fun of high sec residents.

auraofblade wrote:
If I make a choice to segregate myself from the rest of the community, am I somehow bringing the entire EVE community down?
Yes. I explained it several times and I dislike repeating myself.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#168 - 2013-03-04 07:01:39 UTC
Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-03-04 07:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro
Malcanis wrote:
Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know?


So Malcanis, if you make it to the CSM will you tirelessly advocate for me to be able to fly a Titan on a day 1 alt? Can it also be free and invincible? It's how I want to play, and this is a sandbox isn't it? *stomps foot and pouts*

On a more serious note, you called me out over my signature once before, so I'm curious exactly how you define the sandbox. To me, the word sandbox certainly doesn't imply a magicbox where you get everything you want and get to play absolutely any way you like with no restrictions or impediments.

http://crossingzebras.com/2013/02/17/csm8ripardteg/
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#170 - 2013-03-04 07:31:42 UTC
Wescro wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know?


So Malcanis, if you make it to the CSM will you tirelessly advocate for me to be able to fly a Titan on a day 1 alt? Can it also be free and invincible? It's how I want to play, and this is a sandbox isn't it? *stomps foot and pouts*


They can play how they choose within he parameters of the game. One of what Tippia calls "Malcanisism's" is that Sandbox means you are entitled to attempt whatever you want, not that you're entitled to succeed.

Wescro wrote:
On a more serious note, you called me out over my signature once before, so I'm curious exactly how you define the sandbox. To me, the word sandbox certainly doesn't imply a magicbox where you get everything you want and get to play absolutely anyway you like with no restrictions or impediments.


See above. If people want to try to play EVE like a solo game, then more power to them. They're perfectly entitled to do so. Personally I think it's a waste and that they're missing out on everything that makes EVE worthwhile, but it's no skin off my nose as long as CCP don't modify core game mechanics to enforce their decision (as I specifically said in the post that you quoted but for some reason decided to miss out from your quote)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#171 - 2013-03-04 07:39:48 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Players that want to be left alone, that don’t want to interact, these are not CCP’s core audience. These are short-term players at best.


Citation needed. No, seriously, show me the chart(s) that proves this claim.


Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Let’s be honest. The PvE in EVE is terrible. It’s lacks any sort of challenge. It’s repetitive. It’s not immersive. It’s boring as hell. People that want to play PvE and nothing else, who want no interaction with other people unless it is on their terms, these people are not long for this game.


Yet there are entire player corps filled with these sorts of people. I should know, I help run one of them. And that's before the NPC corp lifers come into the picture... I've seen some of them running on eight years and up and still in their starter NPC corp. Not what I'd call "short term players." They must have good reasons or they wouldn't be doing it. I'm guessing one of those reasons is that they're perfectly happy right where they are... even after nearly a decade.


Poetic Stanziel wrote:
The only thing that will get those players to stay is the PvE, and EVE is never going to have PvE that can challenge the World of Warcrafts, or the Guild War 2s, or the Lord of the Ring Onlines, or the Teras


Other than the fact that you could train a monkey to level-grind in any of those games, and as soon as people realize that then China will get a strongly worded letter from the UN about gold farms & animal rights abuse.


Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Those anti-sandbox people, they create nothing, they give nothing to the game, nobody even knows they exist, except for their complaining.


If they don't interact with anyone how can they be complaining. Which is it?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-03-04 08:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro
Malcanis wrote:
Wescro wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know?


So Malcanis, if you make it to the CSM will you tirelessly advocate for me to be able to fly a Titan on a day 1 alt? Can it also be free and invincible? It's how I want to play, and this is a sandbox isn't it? *stomps foot and pouts*


They can play how they choose within he parameters of the game. One of what Tippia calls "Malcanisism's" is that Sandbox means you are entitled to attempt whatever you want, not that you're entitled to succeed.

Wescro wrote:
On a more serious note, you called me out over my signature once before, so I'm curious exactly how you define the sandbox. To me, the word sandbox certainly doesn't imply a magicbox where you get everything you want and get to play absolutely anyway you like with no restrictions or impediments.


See above. If people want to try to play EVE like a solo game, then more power to them. They're perfectly entitled to do so. Personally I think it's a waste and that they're missing out on everything that makes EVE worthwhile, but it's no skin off my nose as long as CCP don't modify core game mechanics to enforce their decision (as I specifically said in the post that you quoted but for some reason decided to miss out from your quote)


Ah, thanks for clarifying. "People can play the way the like" is quite broad and doesn't make the distinction between success and failure, and it's an argument I often hear from people who want any kind of non-consensual pvp to be eliminated from EVE.

E: And I've read enough of your campaign thread to know that''s not what you advocate. =P

http://crossingzebras.com/2013/02/17/csm8ripardteg/
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#173 - 2013-03-04 11:21:51 UTC
Wescro wrote:


E: And I've read enough of your campaign thread to know that''s not what you advocate. =P


So... how about that sig, then?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC.
F O R M I C I D A E
#174 - 2013-03-04 14:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Haseo Antares
Came expecting a bad article. Leaving satisfied.

There is no problem. Some people simply have far too much time on their hands and whine about how others choose to spend their own free time. Here is a thought; play eve for fun, not to solve hypothetical "impending" internet spaceship crisis. Unless this is for some sort of research project...very little good will come from stressing over something like this.

I love eve and its community...but I sure as hell am not stressing over how you guys 'n' "gals" choose to enjoy being internet spaceship captains.

Edit: As I pressed the post button I realized that I contradicted myself. I will rectify this by not giving a damn. *exits thread stage left*

We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode what you just said.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#175 - 2013-03-04 14:28:53 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/


While I find Poetic's stuff to be hit or miss he's right on the mark here. And he discribed people like me perfectly:
Quote:
I need to differentiate between your normal EVE carebear and the anti-sandbox player. There are players who do spend the majority of their time in PvE pursuits, who tend to avoid PvP, and who are long-term players. What makes these players different from the anti-sanbox crowd is that they understand and accept that EVE is a game of interaction. They understand that other players may come along at any time to knock down some section of their sandcastle. Their acceptance is why they remain. They relish the extra danger, the unknown, the unpredictability of the players around them. The PvE is still boring as hell, but it’s spiced up with the unknown variable that is the rest of the playerbase. I’m am totally cool with these people. These are carebears I respect. These are dudes who get involved with the game, who interact with other players, who are involved in the social fabric of the game.


That said, i will make one quibble. One man's boring is another man's relaxing after work gameplay. I did my 1,437 (yea, it's a mad eup number) True Creations Research Center last night with about 30 of my best friends who I mostly hadn't met till I X'd up in TVP chat lol. Same for lvl 5s and null sec anoms i do. I LIKE it, and it's a mistake to believe that because poetic thinks it's boring that it IS boring.

It's not.

i find minind to be some incredible mind numbing the 1st thing i do when i dock in a pod (and thus get a free noob ship) is take that mining more off and trash it lol, just on principle. But some people like actual mining so good on them.

Poetic is right in that it seems like the game makers are going more and more towards catering to people who won't be happy and won't stay no matter how much you coddle them. This is bad.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2013-03-04 14:52:43 UTC
Jensaro Koraka wrote:
Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/


"...Those anti-sandbox people, they create nothing, they give nothing to the game, nobody even knows they exist, except for their complaining..."


Lol
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#177 - 2013-03-04 14:56:41 UTC
why doesn't he just say solo players? the risks solo players take in low sec and null are massive due to lack of intel, making PvE in highsec versus low or null the difference between night and day.

that's why solo players are more likely to engage in fw in low sec because there's both free intel from the militia channel and gatecamps get decimated if they poach the low sec/high sec gates. also, no tedious split between PvE and PvP focus, you can run the plexes in PvP fits and there's just a few rats to blap rather than waves of them. there's a compelling game of cat and mouse to be played with pirates and incentive to stand your ground.

forums.  serious business.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-03-04 15:09:43 UTC
I too can join a 100,000 man coalition and then lecture solo players about PvP and risk. Roll

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-03-04 15:33:38 UTC
It's not a good article. It's the same crap he always spews. Yes it's easy to agree with his words on the surface but he doesn't cite anything factual. It's nothing more populus drivel.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#180 - 2013-03-04 15:40:18 UTC
auraofblade wrote:
I'm a total noob and full carebear to boot (Trying to fix that! Honest!) but I'm honestly rather confused about the whole High vs Null etc. argument. Is the fact that I mine stuff physically preventing you from flying around and blowing up ships? If I make a choice to segregate myself from the rest of the community, am I somehow bringing the entire EVE community down? And inversely, if you like suicide ganking my barge, are you truly causing carebears everywhere to unsub en-masse?

Unless my actions are in direct, intentional conflict with yours, how on earth am I ruining your game experience? And even if they are ruining your experience...isn't this EVE, where s*** is supposed to happen? Are we all not supposed to deal with the s*** and HTFU? Or is the vocal minority just a pack of hypocrites holding different signs?


Boy are you missing the entire point of the "high sec vs everyone else not just null sec" argument.

it's not the non-high sec players claiming anything is being "destroyed" or whatever by mining. It's high sec people claiming that people (who see the stark imbalances created by the way high sec interacts with the rest of the game) simply "don;t like the way they play".

This is a defensive response that people have in EVE and real life when they think some key self interest is at risk, it boils down to trying to dismiss opposition by simply claiming the person voicing the concern is "evil" and there for not credible.

It's a big lie. No one gives a damn whether you mine or mission or not. I mostly PVE and no one has ever said "man, you're bad because you don't pvp". What people don't like about high sec dwellers isn't the activity, it's the messed up welfare queen like entitlement/eternal victim mentality too many of them display.