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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-03-03 11:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
exactly. because this veldspar is sold into NPC buy order and wasn't used by other players to build stuff/resell/etc...


doesn't matter what's done with the veldspar, but making a sell order isn't interacting with other players.
creating a buy/sell order is simply interacting with the ui regardless of who buys it.

market subforum will like to have word with you Cool

on a more serious note: you right.
ship-to-ship PVP in not interacting with other people too: you only interact with UI by pressing buttons, activating/deactivating modules and all this stuff.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dave Stark
#42 - 2013-03-03 11:38:07 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
exactly. because this veldspar is sold into NPC buy order and wasn't used by other players to build stuff/resell/etc...


doesn't matter what's done with the veldspar, but making a sell order isn't interacting with other players.
creating a buy/sell order is simply interacting with the ui regardless of who buys it.

market subforum will like to have word with you Cool

they often do.

regardless, i don't have to interact with a single person to sell my minerals. i open the ui and click a few buttons. the fact that buy/sell orders are made by players are irrelevant, i'm interacting with the market window not the player.

if i was making player trades, i would accept the point that there's player interaction, but i'm not making player trades i'm using buy/sell orders.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#43 - 2013-03-03 14:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Though I disagree with some of it, I thought this conversation and both linked articles were interesting. As it's been stated in these forums 10,000x that all activities in this game except for ship spinning are pvp, it's difficult to believe anyone can still think solo play exists in the sandbox. Regardless of whether a player is mining solo or mission running solo, once he's undocked, he provides opportunities to other players. That simply isn't solo gaming.

And as to whether market activities constitute social participation:

From the Winter 2012 CSM minutes (again) pgs 9-10:

"Two step cautioned that some of these lurkers never truly engage the community, playing exclusively solo.

Unifex replied: Yes, but does that player that is completely on their own, do they buy anything off of the market? Because that is a form of community participation as well. When we talk about a social game, it's not always about having lots of conversations with people. We have to broaden what we consider social participation in a game like EVE."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2013-03-03 14:36:20 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

I don't know when you started this whine campaign but goons and other whiners make like 99.99% of whine posts in forums since i first visited it.... What?

let's say for every 1 anti-suicide gank post i see 10 posts "nerf this, nerf that, nerf whatever bears have!"



Wrong.

We reply to their threads and turn it on them to get real problems fixed.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-03-03 14:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
baltec1 wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
With regard to the article by poetic...and I quote, "...a very small subset of the entire Eve population..."

So, what exactly is all the fuss about?

Ignore them or gank them.


They whine on the forums to change the game. They are the ones who have broken the barge lineup and they are the ones who are whining about bumping. Anything that gets in the way of their game time is seen as bad and must be removed even if that thing is a cornerstone of EVE.

Been playing since '05 and have seen just as many or even more whines from the hardcore 'elite' PVPers. So your claim is simply false. In fact, I've seen you yourself whine quite more often than any other one "carebear" in the forums.

Yeah yeah. I know, if it's you making the complain then it isn't a whine. It's only a whine when it's coming from one of those pesky "carebears".

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Dave Stark
#46 - 2013-03-03 14:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Yonis Kador wrote:
Though I disagree with some of it, I thought this conversation and both linked articles were interesting. As it's been stated in these forums 10,000x that all activities in this game except for ship spinning are pvp, it's difficult to believe anyone can still think solo play exists in the sandbox. Regardless of whether a player is mining solo or mission running solo, once he's undocked, he provides opportunities to other players. That simply isn't solo gaming.

And as to whether market activities constitute social participation:

From the Winter 2012 CSM minutes (again) pgs 9-10:

"Two step cautioned that some of these lurkers never truly engage the community, playing exclusively solo.

Unifex replied: Yes, but does that player that is completely on their own, do they buy anything off of the market? Because that is a form of community participation as well. When we talk about a social game, it's not always about having lots of conversations with people. We have to broaden what we consider social participation in a game like EVE."


social participation doesn't mean player interaction.

i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

all you're really doing is saying "player interaction doesn't prove my point, so i'll use a phrase that sounds similar with a totally different meaning to shoehorn my point in here"

if CCP want people to interact, they should give them reason to do so, rather than coining a new phrase and saying "look guys, everything is fine!". i mean, as it stands for me at the moment aside from a few chat channels i don't interact with other players, why would i? there's no reason for me to do so.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#47 - 2013-03-03 14:46:07 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

Yeah yeah. I know, if it's you making the complain then it isn't a whine. It's only a whine when it's coming from one of those pesky "carebears".


True.


.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-03-03 14:51:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

I don't know when you started this whine campaign but goons and other whiners make like 99.99% of whine posts in forums since i first visited it.... What?

let's say for every 1 anti-suicide gank post i see 10 posts "nerf this, nerf that, nerf whatever bears have!"



Wrong.

We reply to their threads and turn it on them to get real problems fixed.

wrong.

you not only reply "to their threads". you post in every thread around with the same whines.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#49 - 2013-03-03 14:54:03 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Though I disagree with some of it, I thought this conversation and both linked articles were interesting. As it's been stated in these forums 10,000x that all activities in this game except for ship spinning are pvp, it's difficult to believe anyone can still think solo play exists in the sandbox. Regardless of whether a player is mining solo or mission running solo, once he's undocked, he provides opportunities to other players. That simply isn't solo gaming.

And as to whether market activities constitute social participation:

From the Winter 2012 CSM minutes (again) pgs 9-10:

"Two step cautioned that some of these lurkers never truly engage the community, playing exclusively solo.

Unifex replied: Yes, but does that player that is completely on their own, do they buy anything off of the market? Because that is a form of community participation as well. When we talk about a social game, it's not always about having lots of conversations with people. We have to broaden what we consider social participation in a game like EVE."


And then Unifex stated one of those things the baltec1 of the game still can't understand:

Quote:
Unifex reminded the CSM once again that this group, the lurking single players who are already
subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility. Essentially the “social value, or social equity” of
a player group increases as you move from left to right (on the whiteboard), even though the size of that
player group becomes much smaller in number. In other words, the 10,000 combined instigators and
enablers become as equally valuable as the much larger lurking population. Unifex admitted that
historically, CCP had not been good at balancing their efforts and servicing all groups.


That little bit of conversation was one of the most interesting things i've read in a while.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#50 - 2013-03-03 15:01:24 UTC
Geez, the number of times this subject has come up in my 3 years of playing......


....but it certainly is always the #1 Tear Generator, that much I know at least.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#51 - 2013-03-03 15:04:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
social participation doesn't mean player interaction.


Ummm, yes it does. It's pretty hard to be social by yourself.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-03-03 15:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Dave Stark wrote:
i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-03-03 16:26:17 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?



nope, Dave still thinks NPC's are making up the marketprices.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#54 - 2013-03-03 16:35:31 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?



I say it's become a form of Player vs Bot.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-03-03 17:01:53 UTC
it's kind of ridiculous trying to say there are 'good' carebears and 'bad' carebears. the attitude of players to being engaged unwillingly has no bearing on the outcome.

it is also ridiculous to claim that carebears ruin the game because they will tire of the boring PvE content and unsub and that is a reason to not cater to the PvE players or improve PvE. what is mission PvP currently? some pirate scans you down and jumps in to your mission, scrams, webs and annihilates you because your ship is fitted to passive or active tank waves of rats with specific resists and optimised for cap because of that.

the game actively encourages carebearing. there's no attempt to promote opportune PvP encounters within missions, it's just a massive irritation if you get ganked, especially if the only reason you got ganked was because you were too distracted kiting about 20 rats to spam D-Scan every 5 seconds.

forums.  serious business.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-03-03 17:29:07 UTC
I like how the commenter "the real one" said:

Quote:
Just out of interest, who are these anti-sandbox carebears who are calling for their own special protective area? I honestly don't think I've ever read any blog or forum post or met a player in-game who has been asking for this. I don't read *that* many blogs but I honestly don't recall anyone asking for this feature, otherwise I probably would have replied rather curtly and suggested they consider another game.


Its almost as if these people need to make a up an opponent to bash.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#57 - 2013-03-03 17:44:03 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
I like how the commenter "the real one" said:

Quote:
Just out of interest, who are these anti-sandbox carebears who are calling for their own special protective area? I honestly don't think I've ever read any blog or forum post or met a player in-game who has been asking for this. I don't read *that* many blogs but I honestly don't recall anyone asking for this feature, otherwise I probably would have replied rather curtly and suggested they consider another game.


Its almost as if these people need to make a up an opponent to bash.



Indeed I've not seen such a thing in 3 years solid except for obvious NullBear Alt Poasting.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-03-03 18:29:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

social participation doesn't mean player interaction.

i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

once i've been in 0.0 in LoD alliance. and i've built my own outpost.
Then Droneland war occured and LoD evacuated.

I was already in high-sec when that system and outpost were captured. So using your terminology it wasn't player interaction?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dave Stark
#59 - 2013-03-03 18:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Pandora Barzane wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i agree that using the market is social participation, however in doing so you haven't interacted with a player. they don't have to be online (hell, they don't even have to be aware of it) in order for you to purchase their goods, or for you to sell goods to them.

Are you saying that playing the markets is not a form of PVP (Player vs Player)?



nope, Dave still thinks NPC's are making up the marketprices.



except i've pointed out that i don't think that. at all.

when buying and selling the fact remains that i do not interact with a person. the fact they made the buy/sell orders are irrelevant. exactly in the same way that when i use a self scan checkout at the shops i don't interact with a person. the market ui window is essentially the self scan checkout equivalent of player trades.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-03-03 18:44:57 UTC
horribad article

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