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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#741 - 2013-03-03 08:02:11 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:

Industry needs to be phased out of NPC stations and into POSs ... if it makes people happer, allow small refineries in POSs in 0.5 systems. Make it a conflict driver! ;)


You apparently never tried finding a free 0.5 sec office slot. Depending on season it can be really hard, and no, wardeccing somebody does not make them sign off an office rental.

So, once you put up the 7-8 POSes and the system is full, where do you find slots? It'd make hi sec slots even more limited than null.

Their are loads of free office space in 0.5 systems, just not in the ones close to trade hubs, to get closer you need to use a 0.6 or 0.7 system and they really have a lot of space available, so the should just allow refineries where ever you can anchor a POS.

Player owned should always be better than NPC free.


He said 0.5, not .6 and .7. Where I am is totally far from trade hubs and still corps love the 0.5 <=> 0.4 borders so they fill the 0.5 systems offices.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#742 - 2013-03-03 08:05:42 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.


EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years.

If CCP will do anything it'll be slow and conservative baby steps. Deal with it, you knew EvE's rules when you signed in, or at least you learned them within the first months. If you didn't, then EvE might not be the game for you.

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#743 - 2013-03-03 08:12:22 UTC
38 pages and I have not posted yet. Been away too long.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Frying Doom
#744 - 2013-03-03 10:26:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:

Industry needs to be phased out of NPC stations and into POSs ... if it makes people happer, allow small refineries in POSs in 0.5 systems. Make it a conflict driver! ;)


You apparently never tried finding a free 0.5 sec office slot. Depending on season it can be really hard, and no, wardeccing somebody does not make them sign off an office rental.

So, once you put up the 7-8 POSes and the system is full, where do you find slots? It'd make hi sec slots even more limited than null.

Their are loads of free office space in 0.5 systems, just not in the ones close to trade hubs, to get closer you need to use a 0.6 or 0.7 system and they really have a lot of space available, so the should just allow refineries where ever you can anchor a POS.

Player owned should always be better than NPC free.


He said 0.5, not .6 and .7. Where I am is totally far from trade hubs and still corps love the 0.5 <=> 0.4 borders so they fill the 0.5 systems offices.

Oh did he say 0.5 hmmmm maybe that is why I said "should just allow refineries where ever you can anchor a POS."

but yes border systems and systems close to trade hubs are always full

here is an idea.....move to a different area.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#745 - 2013-03-03 10:27:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.


EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years.

If CCP will do anything it'll be slow and conservative baby steps. Deal with it, you knew EvE's rules when you signed in, or at least you learned them within the first months. If you didn't, then EvE might not be the game for you.

hold on back up...what mechanics have worked well for 10 years?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#746 - 2013-03-03 13:37:34 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.


EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years.

If CCP will do anything it'll be slow and conservative baby steps. Deal with it, you knew EvE's rules when you signed in, or at least you learned them within the first months. If you didn't, then EvE might not be the game for you.

hold on back up...what mechanics have worked well for 10 years?


Enough mechanics to allow EvE to be one of the few 10 years old MMOs looking forward to the next 10.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#747 - 2013-03-03 15:44:43 UTC
hs has only incursion. still null has it to. Missions in null are mor eprofitable then hi - 5 times more.
null incurs is more prof to but incursion overall is not the best income so whats wrong with u?.

Null was and is always a big grinding area - and it never was such as bad as u claim. Problem is u think that u live in null u should get crazy amount of iskies without risk. Persoanlly i live in ls/null bcs it is safe and profitable.

HS is mostly about industry/research. So make alt and produce there to. If u are doing smthing else and complain then u are doing it wrong.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#748 - 2013-03-03 15:58:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.


EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years.

If CCP will do anything it'll be slow and conservative baby steps. Deal with it, you knew EvE's rules when you signed in, or at least you learned them within the first months. If you didn't, then EvE might not be the game for you.

hold on back up...what mechanics have worked well for 10 years?


Enough mechanics to allow EvE to be one of the few 10 years old MMOs looking forward to the next 10.


Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#749 - 2013-03-03 15:58:48 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
hs has only incursion. still null has it to. Missions in null are mor eprofitable then hi - 5 times more.


You're running missions in null, right?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#750 - 2013-03-03 16:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:

Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?


It's always cute to see people reading what they want and not what I say.

I can't even believe you skipped my last months of posting so it's purely bad faith, something quite bad for someone who wants to run for CSM.


So, let's see how me stating since months about "transitioning with baby steps", how "I'd like NPC slots costed as much as POS slots", "improve null sec implementing hi sec alike number of slots" sounds totally fitting with your bolded sentence.

Nope it does not.

The only thing I want different are the baby steps and not to completely eradicate hi sec while improving null sec, a concept null sec people are totally impervious to listen to.

If CCP will implement a sudden strike like proposed by several, then EvE will do like every single MMO I have played in the last decade that did that: sweeping changes => mass players quitting => new players joining but quitting >> joining and in the end the game tanks in a spectacular way.

I am not going to witness to the devastation of the game I love without saying a word.

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Tesal
#751 - 2013-03-03 20:08:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?


You would need a large number of POS to make up for NPC slots. POS suck and are an option of last resort in my opinion. Maybe the goal is to make hi-sec suck so much that people give up on industry, then hi-sec will be equal to null.

Crush the plebes in hi-sec. Wipe the floor with them. The theme continues.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#752 - 2013-03-04 02:50:35 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?


You would need a large number of POS to make up for NPC slots. POS suck and are an option of last resort in my opinion. Maybe the goal is to make hi-sec suck so much that people give up on industry, then hi-sec will be equal to null.

Crush the plebes in hi-sec. Wipe the floor with them. The theme continues.

"Anchor anywhere" POSes with even limited manufacturing capability could easily give that.

But first we'd need the POS update.

Then we'd need to see them spread around, and people complaining about POSes being everywhere, and highsec systems being chock-a-block with useless phallic POSes in the most unsightly locations.

*Then* we'd have the player infrastructure in place to be able to supplant NPC manufacturing facilities.

I actually look forward to it, and lots of other changes.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Frying Doom
#753 - 2013-03-04 03:21:21 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?


You would need a large number of POS to make up for NPC slots. POS suck and are an option of last resort in my opinion. Maybe the goal is to make hi-sec suck so much that people give up on industry, then hi-sec will be equal to null.

Crush the plebes in hi-sec. Wipe the floor with them. The theme continues.

"Anchor anywhere" POSes with even limited manufacturing capability could easily give that.

But first we'd need the POS update.

Then we'd need to see them spread around, and people complaining about POSes being everywhere, and highsec systems being chock-a-block with useless phallic POSes in the most unsightly locations.

*Then* we'd have the player infrastructure in place to be able to supplant NPC manufacturing facilities.

I actually look forward to it, and lots of other changes.

Not even the full update is needed just some modifications to make them suck less.

And it is not about removing the NPC slots it is about making those that have out laid the capital on a POS to have a market advantage.

So yes NPC slots would have to cost a lot more and the best NPC station refineries would need to be set base 30% refine. While at the same time allowing POS refineries to occur in hi-sec and making them 60% plus skills.

So reward = risk* capital expenditure. This by its self is a good start before you even go into the necessary fixes of Null sec and these changes would not require a huge amount of resources.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#754 - 2013-03-04 03:23:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

No, highsec should be like mount olympus, where the gods (CONCORD) preside over their heavenly realm.

All the nullsec dogs can scratch in the dirt like the violent animals they are.


EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years.

If CCP will do anything it'll be slow and conservative baby steps. Deal with it, you knew EvE's rules when you signed in, or at least you learned them within the first months. If you didn't, then EvE might not be the game for you.

hold on back up...what mechanics have worked well for 10 years?


Enough mechanics to allow EvE to be one of the few 10 years old MMOs looking forward to the next 10.

Still need enlightening on what mechanics you believe have remained unchanged for 10 years.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#755 - 2013-03-04 04:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years
lol EVE is rife with total and radical changes demanded by players throughout its entire 10 year history
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#756 - 2013-03-04 04:12:14 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE is not for unique snowflakes who demand total and radical changes to the same mechanics that worked allright for everyone for 10 years
lol EVE is rife with total and radical changes demanded by players throughout its entire 10 year history

Buff those mining barges even more please.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#757 - 2013-03-04 04:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Malcanis wrote:
Yet CCP have never balked at removing NPC crutches once the player economy proved it was capable of handling the load; NPC buy orders for minerals, NPC goods, etc. Why would it be so conceptually difficult to transition the player economy away from NPC manufacturing facilities?

Because players aren't capable of moving to POSes. For one, it's troublesome when your POS corp gets wardecced, unlike the miners and PI and industry characters.

Wardecs need a massive nerf before forcing players to use things like POSes will be anywhere resembling "acceptable" (it won't actually be acceptable of course, expect shooting of jita structures) to the highsecers.


Though I'm sure they wouldn't mind a massive nerf to wardecs just on the principle of it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#758 - 2013-03-04 05:16:27 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

And it is not about removing the NPC slots it is about making those that have out laid the capital on a POS to have a market advantage.


I cannot be in a minority of industrialists when I write that I do not want my manufacturing activities made tethered to my POS. I can't even imagine the increase of logistical difficulty it would be to maintain basic industrial gameplay were this made so. Exponential. If its done wrong, there will be mass unsubs. You already know how fickle some indy guys are. I mean, who thinks up these ideas? Whereas, now I am able to mine in an unlimited number of systems, have perfect refining at all the stations owned by 14 npc corps (so far) and can manufacture at any npc station, anywhere at all. Somehow forcing me to haul all my ore, minerals, and merchandise completely across entire regions back to my POS when it was previously unnecessary is being done for MY advantage? Whatever. I can only speak for myself, but tethering my game to my POS will not help me - its a major nerf. And it feels nothing like balance. It's a kick in the nuts.

I know a POS update is coming and I think the modular POS schematics are beautiful. I was looking forward to it. Then I started reading these threads and I am now considerably less enthusiastic. I seriously spent a whole day ship spinning not even sure if I should bother undocking. As a player who has just invested an entire year laying the foundation for his corp, who worked to build up standings with multiple npc corps - specificially to increase his options - this idea sucks. I really do wish that the plans on relegating high-sec industry to POS's would be laid plain asap. If I've just wasted all that time and my game is about to become unplayable, I certainly wish someone would let me know about that bs sooner rather than later.

YK
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#759 - 2013-03-04 05:22:06 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The only thing I want different are the baby steps and not to completely eradicate hi sec while improving null sec, a concept null sec people are totally impervious to listen to.


Would you suggest that a "release early, release often" approach would work?

For example, start off releasing player-run refineries that work as activity lines and can refine mixtures of ore, as well as reprocessing hardware. Then modify NPC stations to work the same, capable of supporting current levels of use. Then start taking away the NPC station refineries? This could happen over the course of 12 months, in parallel with the removal of other activity slots such as research, invention, manufacturing lines.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#760 - 2013-03-04 05:24:27 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Whereas, now I am able to mine in an unlimited number of systems, have perfect refining at all the stations owned by 14 npc corps (so far) and can manufacture at any npc station, anywhere at all.

Highsec, the best place ever.

Never nothing but joy and happiness in HIGHSEC.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?