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Sharing a good article.
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Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#1 - 2013-03-03 07:16:01 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Just saw this and figured I'd share for anyone who missed it. Pretty close to my own opinion about there being a difference between a PvE player and a carebear. The former is good for Eve, while the latter isn't.

http://evenews24.com/2013/03/01/poetic-discourse-solo-and-pve-play-are-not-sustainable/

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate 1,870
Sentient Blade Crisis Atmosphere Coalition of the Unfortunate Likes received: 1,870	#2 - 2013-03-03 07:48:21 UTC 13 Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal. You can turn an isolationist into an active member of the community if they're in game. You can't once they've left or if they never stayed in the first place.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#3 - 2013-03-03 07:51:55 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Sentient Blade wrote:

Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal.

It's more like complaining that there's no water in a swimming pool or no gas in a car. This is an MMO. Interaction is required to make it work.

Sentient Blade wrote:

You can turn an isolationist into an active member of the community if they're in game.

No, no you can't.

Sentient Blade wrote:

You can't once they've left or if they never stayed in the first place.

I don't see the problem. From a player's perspective they effectively don't exist. From a developer's perspective these are people who are inevitably going to quit anyway and so are nearly irrelevant to profit.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Sentient Blade

Crisis Atmosphere

Coalition of the Unfortunate

Likes received: 1,870

#4 - 2013-03-03 08:09:20 UTC

Oh don't play dumb, of course they exist... You can't both say they don't exist yet somehow cause a problem.

They are a lot of the people mining the minerals that stop your average battlecruiser costing 100 million ISK.

They are a lot of the people grinding LP and putting implants on market so you can have your learning implants or your shiny hardwires.

So on, and so forth.

They are, in effect, a subservient class that serves the larger community that does interact more.

As anyone who understands this game should know, there is no such thing as being truly solo. So unless those mission runners and solo miners etc that Poetic are complaining about suddenly decided to start mining / inventing / building their own ships, going into nullsec to run plexes and find those lovely deadspace mods, mining no asteroid that any other player may wish to mine, then they're interacting with the community.

But... what am I saying? I wouldn't want to go against the populist narrative they're trying to spin.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#5 - 2013-03-03 08:12:58 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Sentient Blade wrote:

Oh don't play dumb, of course they exist... You can't both say they don't exist yet somehow cause a problem.

I said they effectively don't exist. There's a big difference. Whining until they attained that state of semi-existence is how they're causing problems. It wasn't always like that.

It also has unfortunate implications for life in low and null. One of the more striking things I noticed since being back is the complete absence of anyone but other PvPers in low. I hear industry is quite dead in null too. I was also surprised to learn that most people have high sec alts. This article explains why that came about. Belt piracy used to be a thing, you know. I'd like it to be again some day. I'd also like to be in a low sec corp with a manufacturing division again, if such a thing still existed. Even some of us rabid PvPers like to build something once in a while.

Sentient Blade wrote:

They are a lot of the people mining the minerals that stop your average battlecruiser costing 100 million ISK.

High sec has received a lot of safety buffs and yet everything is between 2 1/2 to 5 times more expensive than it used to be in my day, except for most T2 products, but that's because of the lottery going away. Tell me more about how insulating the people trying to pretend this is X3 in their own little version of Eve is keeping prices low.

Sentient Blade wrote:

They are a lot of the people grinding LP and putting implants on market so you can have your learning implants or your shiny hardwires.

There are missions in low and null. People could do them while the PvPers in their corp camp the gate or patrol, like we used to do in my mining corp. People would interact and help each other and it would be awesome. Or at least it would be if everyone wasn't making piles of ISK AFK in high.

Sentient Blade wrote:

As anyone who understands this game should know, there is no such thing as being truly solo.

Selling veldspar on the market isn't interacting with other people. It's interacting with the UI.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#6 - 2013-03-03 08:40:45 UTC

I think I benefit from a fairly unusual perspective. I've seen the entirety of Eve's history, from early closed beta to today. Most bittervets probably saw it as a continuum and fell prey to creeping normalcy. On the other hand, I quit for a few years several times so I my memory of Eve is a series of snapshots of 4 points in the timeline. To me the differences didn't happen slowly, but instantly, and they stick out like a sore thumb. The changes to high sec have had a dramatic impact on life in low sec. They're not the only cause, but they're a large part of it.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Josef Djugashvilis

Likes received: 3,578

#7 - 2013-03-03 09:00:50 UTC

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Poetic has but one thought and repeats it endlessly.

Sad really.

This is not a signature.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#8 - 2013-03-03 09:03:03 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Poetic has but one thought and repeats it endlessly.

Sad really.

Do you have any thoughts about that one thought or are you just here to whore post count?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Josef Djugashvilis

Likes received: 3,578

#9 - 2013-03-03 09:04:53 UTC

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Poetic has but one thought and repeats it endlessly.

Sad really.

Do you have any thoughts about that one thought or are you just here to ***** post count?

Yes.

This is not a signature.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#10 - 2013-03-03 09:05:45 UTC

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Poetic has but one thought and repeats it endlessly.

Sad really.

Do you have any thoughts about that one thought or are you just here to ***** post count?

Yes.

GTFO then.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken


Josef Djugashvilis Likes received: 3,578	#11 - 2013-03-03 09:07:33 UTC 1 sorry, you edited your post as I was replying. So my answer makes no sense now. Carry on pixel hard-man. This is not a signature.


Jensaro Koraka Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 154	#12 - 2013-03-03 09:13:03 UTC 1 Josef Djugashvilis wrote: sorry, you edited your post as I was replying. So my answer makes no sense now. Carry on pixel hard-man. Sorry, I tend to do that. I'm an indecisive person. It's one of my flaws. "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Whitehound

Likes received: 2,906

#13 - 2013-03-03 09:16:35 UTC | Edited by: Whitehound

Poetic Stanziel is a terrible blogger. Always has been. He probably writes ten times as much as he farts. One needs to tie a sausage around his neck for the dog to play with him. He does not understand that people do not want to play with everyone while at the same time he dislikes others. His articles are full of such crap.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#14 - 2013-03-03 09:19:01 UTC

Whitehound wrote:

Poetic Stanziel is a terrible blogger. Always has been. He probably writes ten times as much as he farts. One needs to tie a sausage around his neck for the dog to play with him. He does not understand that people do not want to play with everyone while has has a disliking of his own. His articles are full of such crap.

Would you like to talk about why you think he's wrong or is "you're wrong because **** you" the extent of your intellectual capability?

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Malcanis

Vanishing Point.

The Initiative.

Likes received: 18,382

#15 - 2013-03-03 09:19:13 UTC

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Here's a different perspective on the issue.

Ultimately, the issue is not whether people like to play solo or not. People can play how they choose - sandbox, ya know? The issue is whether CCP are willing to amend the core structure of the game to suit solo play.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Indahmawar Fazmarai

Likes received: 5,954

#16 - 2013-03-03 09:20:41 UTC

Woah, if I *ever* have seen a straw man argument, it's been this one! Shocked

"Playing solo" is not the same as "playing single-player".

If i wanted to mine single-player, I would be playing X3.

Instead, I did played a game where i had to jump to 6 bookmarks before finding some unmined scordite.

And then i would mine it on my own, sometimes with a Hulk, soemtime with a Rokh -if it was a certain time of the year.

Then I would sell that mineral for a variable price.

And all that time, I would be sharing the universe with other people without actually socializing them. That kept things interesting, albeit the mecchanic involved was awfully boring. So I would then open a chat window and socialize with other people without actually exchanging any game resources with them, only my time -and theirs- as we all waited for something to happen ingame that required our attention. Maybe a scordite scan dropping below 11k, so was time to switch the strip miner to another rock...

So no, "playing EVE solo" does not equal to "single player". What it equates though, is to be faced with some of the most awfully unrewarding (and/or time-wasting) mechanics ever implemented in a game... which is not OUR fault.

Whitehound

Likes received: 2,906

#17 - 2013-03-03 09:21:01 UTC | Edited by: Whitehound

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

Whitehound wrote:

Poetic Stanziel is a terrible blogger. Always has been. He probably writes ten times as much as he farts. One needs to tie a sausage around his neck for the dog to play with him. He does not understand that people do not want to play with everyone while has has a disliking of his own. His articles are full of such crap.

Would you like to talk about why you think he's wrong or is "you're wrong because **** you" the extent of your intellectual capability?

I just wrote why. Reading is difficult...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#18 - 2013-03-03 09:23:11 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Malcanis wrote:

Jensaro Koraka wrote:

I don't mind people playing solo. I do it myself sometimes. What I have a problem with is people wanted the game changed so that it's impractical or impossible to interact with them even by force. At that point the game ceases to be a sandbox. I'll read the article and be back with a comment on it.

Edit: I read the article. So true. Both because we undervalue those people and because those people do add much to the game even when they're not our friends. Some of the people who have made my games worth playing have been my most bitter enemies, although I wouldn't admit it at the time. I need a good badguy to give me an objective and sense of purpose.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

Whitehound

Likes received: 2,906

#19 - 2013-03-03 09:30:35 UTC

Sentient Blade wrote:

Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal.

Next thing you know he will be complaining about doors. How every house, every room, has got a door and how doors are terrible, because they disallow free movement and a world without doors would be much more open and interactive, and doors a so bad. If one could only shut down his blogs...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Jensaro Koraka

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 154

#20 - 2013-03-03 09:32:36 UTC | Edited by: Jensaro Koraka

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Woah, if I *ever* have seen a straw man argument, it's been this one! Shocked

The same thing could have been accomplished by a random number generator. You don't need other players for that. You're playing single player.

Whitehound wrote:

Sentient Blade wrote:

Complaining about people who don't interact with you is like complaining that there are neutrinos in your breakfast cereal.

Again with the analogies that have no resemblance to what I said at all. My complaint was basically that I see Trammel as the future of high sec. A game within a game that will destroy the game the original players know and love. A more correct analogy would be that I'm worried the doors are going to be nailed shut and I'll never see the rest of my house again.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken

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