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Talos vs Serpentis
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Brynhilda
Chimp Hoons Export and Expo Service
Scary Wormhole People
#1 - 2011-10-27 22:36:54 UTC
No, not the rats but their ships.

So the Talos will get a damage bonus and a web bonus while the Serpentis boats get a damage role, falloff bonus and web bonus.

How will the Talos compare to the Vigilantis my question. Vigilant is smaller but would the Talos make it obsolete?

How may I drug you with drugs?
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-10-27 23:11:26 UTC
Large guns Vs medium guns... even if the Talos has similar DPS as the Vigilant, i think the Vigilant could apply that DPS a lot better than the Talos.

But yeah... a 40m isk ship Vs 300m isk ship, which would you choose?

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Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#3 - 2011-10-27 23:22:51 UTC
Well, the Vigiliant is pretty lackluster, so hopefully if the Talos overshadows it the Vigilant will get boosted slightly.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-10-27 23:53:35 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Well, the Vigiliant is pretty lackluster, so hopefully if the Talos overshadows it the Vigilant will get boosted slightly.


Waiting for the testing possibility on SISI but I'm already convinced I'll keep buying/fitting cheaper fun ganky Cynabals rather than expensive green turtles that can't shoot properly and effectively at regular disruptor range
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-28 00:15:24 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Large guns Vs medium guns... even if the Talos has similar DPS as the Vigilant, i think the Vigilant could apply that DPS a lot better than the Talos.

But yeah... a 40m isk ship Vs 300m isk ship, which would you choose?


Pretty much. Very different ships, not worth comparing...

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Songbird
#6 - 2011-10-28 00:36:41 UTC
the new cheap ganky 800mm AC's minm BC would be fast and have about 100km range with barrage.... I think even the Cynabal will be a second choice.
Goose99
#7 - 2011-10-28 00:56:56 UTC
Desudes wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Large guns Vs medium guns... even if the Talos has similar DPS as the Vigilant, i think the Vigilant could apply that DPS a lot better than the Talos.

But yeah... a 40m isk ship Vs 300m isk ship, which would you choose?


Pretty much. Very different ships, not worth comparing...


Talos has base max velocity of 210m/s, Vigilante has base max velocity of 196m/s. Talos has large guns with more range, Vigilante has medium guns with less range. Talos has 8 large blasters with 25% dmg bonus, which is the same as Hyperion. Vigilante has... less dps.
Dasquirrel715
Aurora.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2011-10-28 05:38:52 UTC
Well, honestly based on blaster changes, it seems they might be about equal. The vigilant will probably be a bit faster.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-10-28 07:44:26 UTC
Songbird wrote:
the new cheap ganky 800mm AC's minm BC would be fast and have about 100km range with barrage.... I think even the Cynabal will be a second choice.


For roaming gang or gate engagements I'll still pick the Cyna but in larger numbers sure I'll pick the minie new BC version.

The green whale will still be:
web range
sign radius explosion -ho yeah my mwd rocks in tha house-

In short, unless you choose how to pick your fights at the undock he'll be outclassed by all others.

Shortest range weapon system, ship operating in blaster range, higher speed (hi my tracking is badass, why?)

I already see the fail from here. Pick it to gank exhumers or indy, gate/station ganks but in small large fleets?

Alpha 1 alpha 2 alpha 3 alpha 4 ... well you can always put some rails on it and shoot further, they will be awesome with the web bonus...
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#10 - 2011-10-28 08:39:04 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Large guns Vs medium guns... even if the Talos has similar DPS as the Vigilant, i think the Vigilant could apply that DPS a lot better than the Talos.

But yeah... a 40m isk ship Vs 300m isk ship, which would you choose?


Pretty much. Very different ships, not worth comparing...


Talos has base max velocity of 210m/s, Vigilante has base max velocity of 196m/s. Talos has large guns with more range, Vigilante has medium guns with less range. Talos has 8 large blasters with 25% dmg bonus, which is the same as Hyperion. Vigilante has... less dps.


You forget that the Talos would have worse tracking, less agility and would weigh more and also doesn't get that Special faction ship bonus (although the Talos would still do more damage)

But I would much rather have the Talos over the Vigilant

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-10-28 09:02:47 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Desudes wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Large guns Vs medium guns... even if the Talos has similar DPS as the Vigilant, i think the Vigilant could apply that DPS a lot better than the Talos.

But yeah... a 40m isk ship Vs 300m isk ship, which would you choose?


Pretty much. Very different ships, not worth comparing...


Talos has base max velocity of 210m/s, Vigilante has base max velocity of 196m/s. Talos has large guns with more range, Vigilante has medium guns with less range. Talos has 8 large blasters with 25% dmg bonus, which is the same as Hyperion. Vigilante has... less dps.


You forget that the Talos would have worse tracking, less agility and would weigh more and also doesn't get that Special faction ship bonus (although the Talos would still do more damage)

But I would much rather have the Talos over the Vigilant



Talos is going to do more DPS with the 8 larges and a its damage bonus, with the flat 20% that all blasters are getting anyway, there is really no reason to fly a Vigilant over the Talos when you take into account...well getting them blown up.

Plus considering the Talos web bonus...tracking isn't a much of a concern particularly if you fly with an interdiction booster, the additional range afforded from the large guns is going to make it a mean ship, no more kiting from 15km and getting away with it.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-10-28 13:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Songbird wrote:
the new cheap ganky 800mm AC's minm BC would be fast and have about 100km range with barrage.... I think even the Cynabal will be a second choice.



you know, some people started touting back and forth how 800mm AC's can reach 100km with barrage, but I felt something was wrong with this.

so I punched a few numbers here and there, and now I came to correct this partial fallacy!


T2 800mm range with sharpshooter and traj. analysis = 6km opt + 24km falloff -> meaning 800mm has a maximum range of 54km~ (optimal + 2x falloff where it does about 2% of the gun's dps)

adding barrage, this number climbs to 78km (falloff = 36km) where you will be doing about 2% of your dps.


so where does this mythical number comes from? ah that's right Tracking enhancers. adding 3 will make the guns reach the 69km falloff mark, and that means it can do *some* damage at ranges above 100km.


but then again, it is also true that any meaningful damage these guns do, stop at about 1.5x the falloff or thereabouts (try to shoot at something at edge of 2x falloff something and you'll know what I mean), which means that the 64dps (minmatar BS5, spec 4, no dmg mods, 3xTE) provided by a 800mm in a tempest (for example) will drop to some 30ish~ dps at about 40 and so km.

said damage continues to drop till it reaches... 6-7dps? at said 100km range.



and so, what does this mean?

/dons devil's advocate suit.

tbh the conclusion I came about is that people have been demonizing the AC's (rightfully or not, tbh it's discussable), for the wrong reasons.
most issues with the AC's seem to stem from AC ships that usually have falloff bonuses, which, in hindsight, might be a too good bonus when compounded with the TE changes made in the past.

in relation to the tornado, and we're now entering in speculative ground btw, this means that, unless the ship has a very generous number of lowslots (read 5+) to fit 3 TE's with little sacrifice in actual damage and/or tank (my guess is people will shield buffer tank it), and/or a falloff bonus (existing only in T2 and pirate ships) I wouldn't worry it doing expressive damage beyond the 50km mark when using AC's.

sure it could do damage at 100km, but it would either be the same as scratching paint with AC's, or doing it at that range with arties.



TL;DR: doing *good* damage with AC's at 80-90km plus only exists on the machariel or a marauder 5 skilled vargur. if any, the cynabal will have just a tiny bit less range.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Songbird
#13 - 2011-10-28 13:32:44 UTC
stick a vargur in EFT(same falloff bonus as the 'nado)

Stick 3 TE or 1 TE + 2tc with optimal script.

Stick barrage in the guns.

In my EFT version I'm looking at 111km falloff + 8.6km optimal - that's about 120 km range - I said 100 km because at the end of the falloff you do not get that much dps , or maybe because the 'nado can't fit 3 tracking modules without sacrifices - still AC's are quite capable of reaching 100km
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-28 13:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Songbird wrote:
stick a vargur in EFT(same falloff bonus as the 'nado)

Stick 3 TE or 1 TE + 2tc with optimal script.

Stick barrage in the guns.

In my EFT version I'm looking at 111km falloff + 8.6km optimal - that's about 120 km range - I said 100 km because at the end of the falloff you do not get that much dps , or maybe because the 'nado can't fit 3 tracking modules without sacrifices - still AC's are quite capable of reaching 100km




tornado's stats aren't final.


also,
Quote:
in relation to the tornado, and we're now entering in speculative ground btw, this means that, unless the ship has a very generous number of lowslots (read 5+) to fit 3 TE's with little sacrifice in actual damage and/or tank (my guess is people will shield buffer tank it), and/or a falloff bonus (existing only in T2 and pirate ships) I wouldn't worry it doing expressive damage beyond the 50km mark when using AC's.



in sum, we still don't know so let's not go there, yet.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Songbird
#15 - 2011-10-28 13:55:24 UTC
The stated bonuses for the 'nado is 5% ROF and 10% falloff - and yes it's subject to change - I haven't seen the talos stats confirmed either. You may fly them on the test server for weeks and you still won't be sure that these are the stats they'll come to tq with - hell I'm sure they will balance them even on the life server if they have to.

This is a speculation thread what did you expect - it's based on no hard facts.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-10-28 19:37:05 UTC
People keep sayimg a 40m price for these. Has that been stated for certain? Seems kinda low to me.

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Goose99
#17 - 2011-10-28 19:53:21 UTC
Hrett wrote:
People keep sayimg a 40m price for these. Has that been stated for certain? Seems kinda low to me.


That seems high, if the percentage price gap between tier 1 and 2 bcs, or between tiers of cruisers, can be used as reference.