These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Post combat: How do you analyze what happened?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#1 - 2013-03-02 13:54:47 UTC
I am a novice and have been very lucky when it comes to responses to my three questions so far on this forum. The discussions have been most educational.

I am really getting into the PVP thing, but I am struggling with analyzing what went wrong (or right) in a fight after the fact. Someone has mentioned log analyzers, but I can't seem to get them to be useful. Do you successfully use a log analyzer? (I am on a Mac)

Someone also suggested frapping all combats and analyzing the videos. Is that the way to go? Or do you just intently watch the combat as it unfolds and try to catch as many parameters as you can (own speed, opponent speed, modules affecting you, transeversal speed, any gun range modifications, cap status - there is just too much)

My own method currently is doing a lot of practice fights to hull with my alliance and then asking my opponent, post fight, what he / she did. Often, they will also link me their fit, which is what I learn the most from.

Thanks and tips would be appreciated.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2013-03-02 13:56:03 UTC
Skarp Severasse wrote:
I am a novice and have been very lucky when it comes to responses to my three questions so far on this forum. The discussions have been most educational.

I am really getting into the PVP thing, but I am struggling with analyzing what went wrong (or right) in a fight after the fact. Someone has mentioned log analyzers, but I can't seem to get them to be useful. Do you successfully use a log analyzer? (I am on a Mac)

Someone also suggested frapping all combats and analyzing the videos. Is that the way to go? Or do you just intently watch the combat as it unfolds and try to catch as many parameters as you can (own speed, opponent speed, modules affecting you, transeversal speed, any gun range modifications, cap status - there is just too much)

My own method currently is doing a lot of practice fights to hull with my alliance and then asking my opponent, post fight, what he / she did. Often, they will also link me their fit, which is what I learn the most from.

Thanks and tips would be appreciated.


Fraps/logs.


Everyone has "Ok what the **** just happened" moments.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#3 - 2013-03-02 14:02:18 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Fraps/logs.

Ok, guess I have to try harder getting meaningful information out of the logs. Will also install Fraps and see what it does. (Other than kill my Mac)
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#4 - 2013-03-02 14:36:07 UTC
Sometimes it is easy. A fast frigate gets under your arty thrasher's guns for example. Other times it takes alot of knowledge to figure it out. He moved at 6km/s and webbed you at 19km? Snakes and Loki support.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#5 - 2013-03-02 14:48:38 UTC
It's a complex multistage process using many long words and lots of heated arguments over comms.

However, I believe it can be best summed up using a flow chart:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2yl8aqh.jpg
Othran
Route One
#6 - 2013-03-02 18:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
IME for solo stuff its more a case of just learning the capabilities of the ships you're fighting. Don't stress too much about that, it'll come.

Once you have a fair idea of what you're likely to face with ship types then you'll notice when there's something odd occurring - like links/implants/whatever.

I have velocity, radial velocity and angular velocity on overview - I find that works although many people consider it overkill.

Never used log analysers, never needed to as its usually obvious why I died (incompetence usually P ).
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#7 - 2013-03-02 18:30:05 UTC
Othran wrote:
IME for solo stuff its more a case of just learning the capabilities of the ships you're fighting. Don't stress too much about that, it'll come.

Once you have a fair idea of what you're likely to face with ship types then you'll notice when there's something odd occurring - like links/implants/whatever.

I have velocity, radial velocity and angular velocity on overview - I find that works although many people consider it overkill.

Never used log analysers, never needed to as its usually obvious why I died (incompetence usually P ).


Find a good log reading website. Will help you make sense of it alll
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#8 - 2013-03-02 20:42:59 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
Othran wrote:
IME for solo stuff its more a case of just learning the capabilities of the ships you're fighting. Don't stress too much about that, it'll come.

Once you have a fair idea of what you're likely to face with ship types then you'll notice when there's something odd occurring - like links/implants/whatever.

I have velocity, radial velocity and angular velocity on overview - I find that works although many people consider it overkill.

Never used log analysers, never needed to as its usually obvious why I died (incompetence usually P ).


Find a good log reading website. Will help you make sense of it alll


Any recommendations for one?

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-03-03 01:39:01 UTC
Combat log analyser :- http://evelog.mikk36.eu

There is a lot to be said for fitting 20 ships the same and losing them as quickly a possible. By the time you've got down to the last 5 you should have a pretty good idea of how to fly it.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#10 - 2013-03-03 01:52:38 UTC
The Lobsters wrote:
Combat log analyser :- http://evelog.mikk36.eu

There is a lot to be said for fitting 20 ships the same and losing them as quickly a possible. By the time you've got down to the last 5 you should have a pretty good idea of how to fly it.


Surely "losing 20 ships as quick as possible" would be loading them into a carrier then going AFK in a belt?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#11 - 2013-03-03 03:18:12 UTC
Tricorder. Wave it round and it will tell you what you did wrong.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#12 - 2013-03-03 05:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
you need to read the little icons above your ships capacitor reading to know what he's doing to you. scram/web, td or jam. also range control. most of the times you lose it's because you didn't control your range.

if he came too close, or burned away, why?

if you werent' able to get close enough or burn away from him, why?

at it's core, this is a game you need to be able to get to a certain range, then hold it so you can maintain a point/web/whatever until your guns kill him before his do.

if that's not happening, then he's getting to his range and doing it to you.

once you realize this, you'll know how you're losing and what you need to do to win or at least not lose.

also, resists are very important. if he's flying an em ship (lasers), and you have a shield ship with no em resists... expect a bad outcome. learning damage types and resists is critical.

gl
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#13 - 2013-03-03 06:09:36 UTC
Adding to the above, think about popular fits and how to engage them. For instance, one of the most popular Projectile rounds is Phased Plasma....as with most (if not all) Caldari missile boats having Kinetic. Then you have hyrbids being very popular. What do these three things all have in common? Therm/Kin damage. Right there, getting those above 60% (70% would rock but would require too much investment in tank probably) will do wonders in making yourself more flexible for engagements - armor or shield. Likewise keep in mind the increasingly popular Pulse fits (EM mostly, some thermal) and that a lot of Minmatar pilots prefer EMP (EM damage, as the name infers). So knowing these things really do help when making these decisions and also making a decision based on if you can fight that ship or not.

For instance, in my Condor I roam about in I would avoid anything that I fear would do EM damage...with only a DC II for resists (13%) the damage output they're putting on me might as well be 100% EFT numbers. Meanwhile if I run into an Incursus, almost always hybrid fit, I'd definitely fight it (since my kinetic/therm resists are my highest in that boat).



Planning is just as much Post-combat analysis as is the actual analysis. If you don't start with a game plan you shouldn't start at all.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Seraph Castillon
In Control
#14 - 2013-03-03 15:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Castillon
For a long time I analysed my fights after they happened. If you ask me that's the wrong way to approach things. While I mostly understood what happened and why I won or lost it didn't help me much. I kept making the same basic mistakes.

You need to analyse your fights before and while they happen.

Before:
What is their ship?
Possible fits?
Possible tactics?
Counters to various fits/tactics given your ship and fit?
Should you even take the fight?


During:
Which of the previously listed fits is it? Look at guns, modules activated on you.
What are they trying to do? Pull range? Orbit? TD (which script)? Neut?
What are the consequences for you and your chosen tactic?
Do you need to adjust tactics?



For me, picking up first person shooter games again helped my ability to process all the variables of an EVE frigate fight better and faster.
You should basically leave every fight knowing full well what has happened and why things went wrong if they did.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-03-03 16:32:57 UTC
no so into PvP. however it is always clear to me why did i lose.... have never needed any logs or fraps

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
SAJUK NIGARRA
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-03-03 17:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: SAJUK NIGARRA
Fraps. Eventually share the fraps with ppl more competent that yourself and ask for their input. Hell, even convo your opponents (in real fights not madebelief to hull fights) and chat with them about the fight you just had.

Also your reactions in a fight to the hull are not nearly the same as in a do or die situation, so imo that's a **** ideea for practicing and learning. Not to mention boats like the ranis where finishing the fight in deep hull is the norm.
SAJUK NIGARRA
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-03-03 17:12:19 UTC
dualpost fail
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#18 - 2013-03-03 19:32:14 UTC
Something the above brought up:

Know your ship's defensive capabilities. If you're armor tanked then how quickly your shields go down isn't that great of an indicator of how well you'll hold up. Likewise if you're shield tanked keep in mind that your armor still has nice resists and most of the shield ships (mostly Minmatar) have nice armor HP stats as well so it's not a total freak out moment. Most of my fights in shield ships end with me in armor, if not bleeding hull. Likewise a kiting ship can easily fight in hull if it has to.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Cute E
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-03-04 01:11:27 UTC
Morgan Torry wrote:
For instance, in my Condor I roam about in I would avoid anything that I fear would do EM damage...with only a DC II for resists (13%) the damage output they're putting on me might as well be 100% EFT numbers. Meanwhile if I run into an Incursus, almost always hybrid fit, I'd definitely fight it (since my kinetic/therm resists are my highest in that boat).



Planning is just as much Post-combat analysis as is the actual analysis. If you don't start with a game plan you shouldn't start at all.



You are engaging an incursus in a condor simply because you're faster and you can keep him pointed whilst you kill him from a distance. A blaster incursus can only reach so far and a rail incursus will not have enough applied DPS to break a condor orbiting@3+km/s.

But I know a case where two condors couldn't kill an incursus and had to warp off because they simply got bored after 10 minutes.

I also know of cases where the condor derped, got scrammed and subsequently got torn to shreds by an incursus.

Resists will only get you so far in frigates, that is actually why you would invest in a faction/deadspace repper on a faction frig for instance (without going overboard with a 150m repper on a 30m frigate), but not in faction hardeners. With frigates the most important things are a) how you fly the damn thing and b) range control. You've hit approach on a ti3 BC? Expect to be instavolleyed. You spiralled and got under his guns? Take your time and kill it, you will eventually break him.

As the ship gets bigger, manual flying becomes even more important because inertia goes up. You can insta-turn in your slicer? Well, a Vagabond will teach you a thing or two when you get scrammed and die in a fire because you didn't fly manually. We are talking of course skirmish ships.

Log analyser? No.

The absolutely best thing to get what happened is to actually record the fight and then replay it (in slow motion if necessary), dissecting every little aspect of the fight. I found fights where the conclusion was "had I shot first, would've came out on top" and others where the bottom line was "I`m an idiot for engaging that".