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400m3 Dronebay. So what?
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Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#1 - 2013-03-01 00:29:12 UTC
Question for Dominix/Rattlesnake pilots running missions in highsec:

Are heavy drones useful to bring if you rely mostly on sentries, or do you only pack sentries and lights?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Laura Valu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-03-01 00:44:45 UTC
I mission mostly in Minmatar space, so it's useful for the Angel battleships that like to orbit at 7.5 k. I suppose they might also be useful against blaster fit Serpentis types. It's really down to taste.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#3 - 2013-03-01 00:54:23 UTC
Well, what would you say is the minimum range of Gardes with good skills? I guess that's what it comes down to. Idea

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-03-01 01:34:58 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Well, what would you say is the minimum range of Gardes with good skills? I guess that's what it comes down to. Idea


I haven't run missions in a long time. But when I did I ran a domi with 2 omnis. Gardes could hit cruisers at 10km and battleships at any range. Almost never use heavies.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-03-01 02:18:27 UTC
While we are talking about sentries, how many does it take to break a bs tank? Do you need t2 to be effective with them? I haven't pulled anything other than hob2's out of the bay yet. Are med drones worth the space?
max scrotes
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-03-01 03:31:02 UTC
Mostly missioning against serpentis so i use wardens when i mjd out to 100km's then switch to gardes for under 50km's. then fill the rest with meds and lights for those pesky frigs that get through. This is my setup:

[Rattlesnake, New Setup 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Sensor Booster II
Large Shield Extender II
Target Painter II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I
Large Core Defense Field Purger I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

with the micro jump drive there really is no need to carry heavies :)
Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-03-01 05:40:21 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
While we are talking about sentries, how many does it take to break a bs tank? Do you need t2 to be effective with them? I haven't pulled anything other than hob2's out of the bay yet. Are med drones worth the space?

Before Drone Damage Amplifiers were introduced, I'd say you'd need T2 Sentries. The difference between T1 and T2 is significant. Now, with DDA's... I don't know; I haven't had a chance to try it.

As for Medium Drones: yeah, they are worth the space. They'll pop Cruisers and Battlecruisers much easier than Lights will, plus they'll have decent enough damage when sending them against Battleships.

Heavy Drones are only really usefull (imo) against Battleships in very close proximity, because they are slooow...
Id hitthat
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-03-01 09:41:34 UTC
Use the dronebay for more than eft warrioring. add some utility. for instance five medium ecm drones is good defense against gankers regardless if you're in high/low/0.0 sec. To answer your original question mediums are pretty good heavies not so good for your purposes.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-03-01 10:08:59 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Well, what would you say is the minimum range of Gardes with good skills? I guess that's what it comes down to. Idea


With all skills 5 the tech 2 Garde have a optimal range og 30 km with 12km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal becomes 45km the falloff remain at 12km. If you can't use tech sentry drones the Federation Navy Grade is probably what you want to use, their optimal range is 25km and 10km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal is 38 and falloff is 10km.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#10 - 2013-03-01 12:36:58 UTC
dexington wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Well, what would you say is the minimum range of Gardes with good skills? I guess that's what it comes down to. Idea


With all skills 5 the tech 2 Garde have a optimal range og 30 km with 12km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal becomes 45km the falloff remain at 12km. If you can't use tech sentry drones the Federation Navy Grade is probably what you want to use, their optimal range is 25km and 10km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal is 38 and falloff is 10km.


Thanks, but that's the maximum range, and EFT can easily spit those numbers out. What I was asking about is the minimal range at which t2 gardes with 2 omnis can efficiently track orbiting BSs. If this range is low enough, there is obviously no need at all for heavies.

max scrotes wrote:
Mostly missioning against serpentis so i use wardens when i mjd out to 100km's then switch to gardes for under 50km's. then fill the rest with meds and lights for those pesky frigs that get through. This is my setup:


That's not the tank I imagined. I was thinking about 1 T2 DCS, 2 T2 Active Hardeners, 2 T2 LSEs, same rigs. Would that work too? It works fine on my Drake for lvl 4s, so I thought it would also work fine on a Rattlesnake, thanks to the added dps and range. I'm still hesitating between extender rigs and purger rigs though. According to EFT, the purgers are better after 7 minutes, but I still think the extenders are better for dps spikes and occasional gank attempts. I could use some input here too.

Does the MJD work in all missions? Isn't a MWD more practical for missions with long subwarp traveltimes?

Why do you use a TP and an Omni instead of 2 Omnis? Does that make a big difference? After all, the missiles are only a small part of your dps.

Finally, how does a Rattlesnake perform in Incursion fleets?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
max scrotes
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-03-01 13:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: max scrotes
Quote:
That's not the tank I imagined. I was thinking about 1 T2 DCS, 2 T2 Active Hardeners, 2 T2 LSEs, same rigs. Would that work too? It works fine on my Drake for lvl 4s, so I thought it would also work fine on a Rattlesnake, thanks to the added dps and range. I'm still hesitating between extender rigs and purger rigs though. According to EFT, the purgers are better after 7 minutes, but I still think the extenders are better for dps spikes and occasional gank attempts. I could use some input here too.

Does the MJD work in all missions? Isn't a MWD more practical for missions with long subwarp traveltimes?

Why do you use a TP and an Omni instead of 2 Omnis? Does that make a big difference? After all, the missiles are only a small part of your dps.

Finally, how does a Rattlesnake perform in Incursion fleets?


never tried incursions. i use a tp to make frigs easier to hit as they approach from 100km's, you can use 2 omni's but i had only 1 lying around :) and with 2 augmentor II's your max range of sentries and drones is just over 100 km's. The tank is weak compared to what you can do with a rattler but the incoming dps will be low as you will always have range with the mjd. You can still use the mjd even if rats are scrambling you, so you have a margin of safety by jumping out to 100km's and evaluating the situation.
As for ganking, i never fly missions in low sec. and don't have any expensive stuff on my ship to make me a gankers target. You can always drop the tp and add another extender if you feel you need more tank or even drop a damage mod for another spr II. T2 sentries chew through battleships pretty quick from 100 km's inwards so incoming dps should never be a problem. I would suggest trying a few missions in it with a friend until you feel comfortable with a fit and tactics.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-03-01 13:16:42 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
dexington wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Well, what would you say is the minimum range of Gardes with good skills? I guess that's what it comes down to. Idea


With all skills 5 the tech 2 Garde have a optimal range og 30 km with 12km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal becomes 45km the falloff remain at 12km. If you can't use tech sentry drones the Federation Navy Grade is probably what you want to use, their optimal range is 25km and 10km falloff, with 2 tech 2 omnidirectional tracking link the optimal is 38 and falloff is 10km.


Thanks, but that's the maximum range, and EFT can easily spit those numbers out. What I was asking about is the minimal range at which t2 gardes with 2 omnis can efficiently track orbiting BSs. If this range is low enough, there is obviously no need at all for heavies.


You maximum range is optimal + 200% falloff, so i guess that you minimum range is optimal - 200% falloff. 200% falloff is the range where you damage done drops to 0%, at 100% falloff you are doing 40% of you maximum damage.

I am not sure if you can actually calculate you minimum range in this way, but if it's correct i would say going below optimal - 100% falloff is going to make it hard to kill anything.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#13 - 2013-03-01 13:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Well, look, this is what I had in mind. Feel free to criticize:

Quote:
[Rattlesnake, PvE All V]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
100MN Microwarpdrive II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Hobgoblin II x10
Vespa EC-600 x5


Some raw (EFT) data (with Serpentis damage profile):

163k effective shield hitpoints (215k total EHP), 217 peak recharge per second
944 dps split up into: 192 missile dps and 751 drone dps (with gardes)
93 km locking range (missile and warden range goes beyond that) 45+12 km garde range
Can run the MWD for 1m46sec, reaching 855 m/sec

I wasn't planning to take this into lowsec, I was mostly refering to suicide gank attempts on a blinged version.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#14 - 2013-03-01 13:20:30 UTC
dexington wrote:
You maximum range is optimal + 200% falloff, so i guess that you minimum range is optimal - 200% falloff. 200% falloff is the range where you damage done drops to 0%, at 100% falloff you are doing 40% of you maximum damage.

I am not sure if you can actually calculate you minimum range in this way, but if it's correct i would say going below optimal - 100% falloff is going to make it hard to kill anything.


You are correct in your assumption that you can't calculate it. Think of the poor projectile turret users if your formula was correct! I was asking the people who use sentries about their experience with their performance at short ranges.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#15 - 2013-03-01 14:15:52 UTC
With Angels, I scoop the Bouncers and launch Berserkers if I manage to screw up badly enough to have a BS orbiting within 12km or so. A bit farther for elite cruisers, those give the sentries a harder time if they decide on a close orbit.

I almost never found a reason to switch from Gardes to Ogres. Gardes with two or three omnilinks track like bosses, and Ogres are slooow.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#16 - 2013-03-01 14:19:25 UTC
Kasutra wrote:
With Angels, I scoop the Bouncers and launch Berserkers if I manage to screw up badly enough to have a BS orbiting within 12km or so. A bit farther for elite cruisers, those give the sentries a harder time if they decide on a close orbit.

I almost never found a reason to switch from Gardes to Ogres. Gardes with two or three omnilinks track like bosses, and Ogres are slooow.


So, would you say that Heavy Drone Operation IV is enough for occasional use, or would you advise to train for T2 heavies as well as for T2 sentries?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#17 - 2013-03-01 14:31:42 UTC
dexington wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:

You maximum range is optimal + 200% falloff, so i guess that you minimum range is optimal - 200% falloff.


You cannot calculate minimum range from falloff, it is purely dependant on tracking vs. transversal.
In extreme situations, minimum range can even be beyond optimal (i.e. in positive falloff numbers).

[quote]
200% falloff is the range where you damage done drops to 0%, at 100% falloff you are doing 40% of you maximum damage.


At 100% falloff with no transversal you're doing 50% of your maximum damage (on average, as it influences hit chance).
That's how falloff is actually DEFINED.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#18 - 2013-03-01 14:40:44 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
So, would you say that Heavy Drone Operation IV is enough for occasional use, or would you advise to train for T2 heavies as well as for T2 sentries?

For the specific scenario of missioning and only missioning with sentries in highsec, I wouldn't place a high emphasis on getting T2 heavies. They are nice to have on less dedicated drone boats, like Megas, and there may come times when you'll think "man, I wish I had better heavies", but I wouldn't prioritize it. If you end up with a "drone remap", grab it, but if you're a Dominix pilot, I'd get stuff like T2 hybrids and Gallente BS 5 first.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#19 - 2013-03-01 14:49:01 UTC
Kasutra wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
So, would you say that Heavy Drone Operation IV is enough for occasional use, or would you advise to train for T2 heavies as well as for T2 sentries?

For the specific scenario of missioning and only missioning with sentries in highsec, I wouldn't place a high emphasis on getting T2 heavies. They are nice to have on less dedicated drone boats, like Megas, and there may come times when you'll think "man, I wish I had better heavies", but I wouldn't prioritize it. If you end up with a "drone remap", grab it, but if you're a Dominix pilot, I'd get stuff like T2 hybrids and Gallente BS 5 first.


Ok, thanks, this what I wanted to know, and what I expected. Cool

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
FapFap McLotionhand
Storm Hunters
#20 - 2013-03-02 17:20:09 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
dexington wrote:
You maximum range is optimal + 200% falloff, so i guess that you minimum range is optimal - 200% falloff. 200% falloff is the range where you damage done drops to 0%, at 100% falloff you are doing 40% of you maximum damage.

I am not sure if you can actually calculate you minimum range in this way, but if it's correct i would say going below optimal - 100% falloff is going to make it hard to kill anything.


You are correct in your assumption that you can't calculate it. Think of the poor projectile turret users if your formula was correct! I was asking the people who use sentries about their experience with their performance at short ranges.


I primarily deal with sansha and gardes will hit cruisers as close as 11-12km with no issues. That's with 2 tracking mods. Frigates at about 15ish. I hit battleships at any range.

Ogre's seem like they are situational these days. I only use them on my blaster megathron.

[u]I SPACE, NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU FAP!!!!!!!!! FAPAPFAPFAPFAP[/u]