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CCP knows it, you know it and even I know it... How to keep more people playing

Author
Professional Forum Alt
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-03-01 12:07:11 UTC
CCP knows it, you know it and even I know it...

A lot of new players joins EVE every day, and leave shortly after, simply because they can’t find someone to play with. As we all know, the key to keeping both old and new players around, is to find other players to do stuff with. This is what keeps EVE alive, it's an MMO after. Especially new players, that also needs someone to teach them how EVE works. There is a lot of corps that really wants to let players in, and even help new players, but are simply too afraid of the security risk of involved. This security risk is often the only and biggest factor, stopping corps from letting new members join.


So what is it that they are afraid of?
Thieves, Spies and AWOXER. EVE is known for its massive meta-game, and is what drives a lot players in and keeps them. But the downside is the protection against it. A lot of corps requires FULL API access, and some go even further to stop this and require RL information. The security risk can be divided into two groups – Sleepers and corp gankers.


Sleepers…
These are almost impossible to stop, but their damage can be greatly reduced by common sense, and a limiting access to assert and info, to only what is needed. The time a sleeper needs to invest, is very high, and the reward very uncertain at best (Unless the corp is run by fools). This is an area that CCP REALLY needs to look at, BUT with the announced change of POSes, and thereby likely also corporation’s rules and rights. It’s fairly pointless to suggest changes to the current system. Corp gankers on the other hand…


Corp Gankers (AWOXER)…
These are also almost impossible to stop, and so is the damage they can do. To make things even worse, the time they need to invest is VERY short. To be able to kill a mining op, indy ship on a haul, a PvE ship and so on, takes VERY VERY little SPs and skill (but a bit of strategy and planning), and there is no paper trace for any “retribution”. The profit can be moved, trial account dropped and new started.

I’m a firm believer in that HS or any other space should NOT be risk free – this is EVE, with risk and rewards. Also that ganking is fair game (both done and been ganked). But I also believe in that there needs to be consequences – BOTH ways.

If I gank someone random in HS – I get concord.
If I don’t want to get concorded, I can declare war, move out of HS or similar.
I can’t shoot other people in my alliance, my fleet or any other random person in HS.
UNLESS they are in my corp…

For some reason, the only people not protected from ganking in HS, are my corp mates.
(War/dueling is a different case, as you are made aware of the suspension of crime watch, for valid reasons)


But why is this?
I believe that the reason for this loophole is that in the past, before the safety button. People got concorded by mistake for shooting a corp mates in fleets doing PvE or similar. This then grow into also letting people test their fits safely, by testing on corp mates. Then grow into also griefing/ganking/profit hunters. I’m sure that CCP had not intended this, and when they found out, they valued “not getting randomly concorded” higher than “corp ganking”.


What has changed?
Well, with the introduction of the safety button AND dueling, there is now no longer any reason to why I should be able to shot at a corp mate. I will no longer get randomly concorded, and I can test my fit in a duel, or even on the test server if need be.
So to help corps to able to take in new players, and thereby reduce the amount of players leaving EVE and let us all have more fun and less paranoia:



PLEASE remove the exception that allows corp mate ganking.



…………………………………………

Who am I?
I been playing EVE for 6 years. Done: HS, low sec, null sec and WHs. Been a solo player, corp mate, corp CEO and Alliance CEO. Made billions, lost some. Ganked, got ganked. Done HS, low and WH wars. Indy, PvE, PvP, trade and everything else. Am down to 5 accounts. Oh, and soon Dust player :)

…………………………………………


Short version:
Improve EVE
Reduce loss of players
Remove free ganking of corp mates.

This is Angelica Everstar's alt

Niveuss Nye
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-03-01 12:24:45 UTC
The full API, "write a five paragraph essay", eve-kill links, etc. is on each corp CEO. Unless that corp offers something
ungodly, I laugh at them. There are plenty of corps out there who do not. A new player just needs to look! Also, while some of these guys ARE being elitist, most of them are just being realistic. Particularly on some areas of the game. You really do need an X number of skillpoints in certain areas to do some things in the game.

No need to remove the ability to shoot other corp mates. Not my style, but there are situations where someone should be allowed to play the bad guy.

Maybe your real complaint is that as a 2 week character you can not get into the big corps? That is like that even in other MMOs that have no grief or spy mechanics.

Even with your changes, a new player will have a bit of a time getting in unless he takes initiative. Why do you have to start in the cool kid corps first thing? What about the smaller corps then ACTUALLY NETWORKING to get to know folks then not having to go through all the BS?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#3 - 2013-03-01 12:54:45 UTC
No. For all the reasons posted against before.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4 - 2013-03-01 13:10:57 UTC
I do think it somewhat constricts the game - theres no way I'd join a corp of randoms with anything I actually cared about - if it wasn't for the fact a good number of the corp I'm in I know from outside of eve and the rest have been blue to us for years I'd probably still be in an NPC corp or my own corp with alts.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#5 - 2013-03-01 14:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
summary: baw baw remove the ability for corpmates to scam steal and kill you

response: no, go play hello kitty online

Edit: The implication that corp mates being able to kill you is harming new player retention is stupid. There's zero evidence of this, the fact that it's ALWAYS been around and subscriptions are doing nothing but growing suggests to me that it isn't an issue at all.

Every carebear and his mother uses "wont someone think of the new players" bullshit when trying to make themselves safer. Stop it.
Mongoose Ellecon
Elite Mice
#6 - 2013-03-01 14:18:31 UTC
8 years ago i was told "Nowhere in EVE is safe not even in corps" and because of that i stayed in the NPC corp until the tax patch and then created my own account corp and i'm still playing.

I dont think unsafe corps drive players away but it does possibly make it harder for CCP to convince newer pilots to join corps and do the bigger parts of eve rather than as i did just create your own corp and mine and mission.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-03-01 14:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
But you really have a good point here, one of the main reasons new players have difficulties in finding good corps is their inner security and paranoia.... Mine ask even for real life, name, phone number, address and we have a 5 hours meeting in Teamspech. ( But totally worth it, everyone got to be friend out of the game too).

But the main dificulty we find is in the corp role management, and in the Assets security.

We have a POS in a WH, and it is a hell to manage everyone's stuff in the same corp hangar and to know who owns what ship there... CCP really should improve the Inventory system related to this.

About the issue of corp firing, this have some positive sides, once or twice we needed to expell some people from the corp because they was ignoring some rules, (those people that just don't care.) , so the CEO called a fleet and we ganked him, letting him in the hull of his carebear ship. then we tried to talk again with him, and we got a bad response and a kill-mail...

Other occasion, we was just testing fits in HS in ower corp fleet... and we just forgot that there was also an alliance member with us... Concord gave me thekill-mail, as I was testing a long range ECM on my friend... = /

So there is many thing to improve there.... I just hope that CCP speed up the development...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2013-03-01 17:19:20 UTC

A few counter points:

1.) Corp on Corp aggression has MANY positive uses, not just negative uses:
-- Web-to-warp Freighters and Orcas (Very Common!)
-- Testing fits with corp mates (I've done this many times)
-- Internal Corp Tournaments (I've ran a few of these myself)
-- Destroying obnoxious corp members..
-- Preventing an Account Hacker from liquidating assets of a corp member (I've done this twice too)!

2.) I support a revamp of POS roles to provide more security at POSes, especially for WH residents, but I still believe that having "security holes" when giving POS access rights is in general a GOOD thing for this game....

3.) Finally, there are MANY avenues in which you can already defend yourself:
a.) Fly in groups, and have a plan on how to deal with an AWOXer...
-- A group of mining barges can simply release ECM drones and jam out most ships...

b.) Minimize losses... This should be a theme in how you approach all your EvE activities.... Don't fly a 2b isk missioning boat. Don't put 5 billion isk in your iteron. Be vigilant and be weary....

c.) Accept losses.... I know you don't want to do this, but losing ships and isk is PART of this game. You WILL eventually lose this stuff, as that's part of living in a dystopia. Don't call for a nerf because of it, but instead learn from the experience, and adapt your playstyle to limit future losses.

In the end, building trust is a major part of this game. Learning to deal with betrayal, how to minimize its impact, and how to avoid it is a fundamental part of organizing a corporation. Limiting this avenue of danger seriously undermines the "dark dystopic" nature of EvE.
Ham burgers
Flowers of Happiness
#9 - 2013-03-01 17:22:46 UTC
I completely agree, we need to remove the protection high sec alliances have from awoxers and extend the "no concord interference" from corporation to the whole alliance.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#10 - 2013-03-01 17:30:17 UTC
i think the problem is we are all canibalistic sharks, lamprey feeding on scraps and crabs picking what remains form the carcasses at the bottom of the pile usually going undetected.

and that "trust" is an issue, like the good old EVE saying

"A little trust goes a long way, the less you use the farther you go"

and most every one joins the game in this mindset and its very "sink or swim" but hopfully the tiericide may help newbies atleast train up a ship in a good time frame to be able to feel useful and not soo helpless but still dosnt help the fact that in the NPC corps there is alot of mis-information and newbies but also the NPC corps feel like... birds picking off baby turtles as they scramble to the sea in a way, though the CAS npc corp does seem very helpful at times and they even have regular operations.
i dont remember what SAK was like that was years ago.

and the pre defined channels for faction war are nothing but spys gathering information relaying it and planting misinformation.. or people just being "winning team joiners" and joining gallente or 'WIN'matar because of the massive imbalance that alliances caused in factionwar (namely goons/minmatar)

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#11 - 2013-03-01 17:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
Ham burgers wrote:
I completely agree, we need to remove the protection high sec alliances have from awoxers and extend the "no concord interference" from corporation to the whole alliance.


no if they wanna Deck a whole alliance then PAY for fee to deck a whole alliance.

and besides i can see more benefit for smaller numbers to stratigically deck single corps in an alliance then biting off more then they can chew takeing on an alliance.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Mongoose Ellecon
Elite Mice
#12 - 2013-03-01 17:41:57 UTC
surely A,B,and C of point 1 is now covered with the duel system.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A few counter points:

1.) Corp on Corp aggression has MANY positive uses, not just negative uses:
-- Web-to-warp Freighters and Orcas (Very Common!)
-- Testing fits with corp mates (I've done this many times)
-- Internal Corp Tournaments (I've ran a few of these myself)
-- Destroying obnoxious corp members..
-- Preventing an Account Hacker from liquidating assets of a corp member (I've done this twice too)!

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#13 - 2013-03-01 18:17:19 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Mine ask even for real life, name, phone number, address and we have a 5 hours meeting in Teamspech.


So uh, what do they do with that information if you do corp gank or thieve?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2013-03-01 19:11:55 UTC
Mongoose Ellecon wrote:
surely A,B,and C of point 1 is now covered with the duel system.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

A few counter points:

1.) Corp on Corp aggression has MANY positive uses, not just negative uses:
-- Web-to-warp Freighters and Orcas (Very Common!)
-- Testing fits with corp mates (I've done this many times)
-- Internal Corp Tournaments (I've ran a few of these myself)
-- Destroying obnoxious corp members..
-- Preventing an Account Hacker from liquidating assets of a corp member (I've done this twice too)!



In team tourneys, the dueling system is difficult to make work.

You also didn't address the main point of my post:
Quote:
In the end, building trust is a major part of this game. Learning to deal with betrayal, how to minimize its impact, and how to avoid it is a fundamental part of organizing a corporation. Limiting this avenue of danger seriously undermines the "dark dystopic" nature of EvE.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#15 - 2013-03-01 23:43:18 UTC
CEO toggle: "Allow sanctioned PvP between corp mates [ ] "

Won't prevent theft, but would save a lot of Orcas.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#16 - 2013-03-02 00:56:20 UTC
Recycling trial accounts for griefing purposes is against the EULA.

The biggest problem with highsec corporations (which is what OP is complaining about) is that there is basically no benefit in joining one. If you provide a good service for your members, their membership in corp is worth more than a day of AWOXing, and they're less likely to bother you for a couple of cheap kills.
Extrokold Thiesant
Decaf Academy
#17 - 2013-03-02 01:28:48 UTC
Corp gankers, AWOXERs, should be fixed. There is really no reason that you should be able to do this without getting concorded.
Hawgr
Sanctum Infinitas
#18 - 2013-03-02 06:07:19 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Mine ask even for real life, name, phone number, address and we have a 5 hours meeting in Teamspech.


So uh, what do they do with that information if you do corp gank or thieve?


They turn in the info to advertisers!!! My Kid joined one of those corps and got over a hundred pieces of junk mail delivered the next month.Later he heard the CEO funded his eve accounts with it.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-03-02 06:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Mine ask even for real life, name, phone number, address and we have a 5 hours meeting in Teamspech.


So uh, what do they do with that information if you do corp gank or thieve?


We usually use it to plan meetings and events, so we pick the city that is closer to everyone, or we call the closest to have a beer. ( We are one of the EVE official FanSites, so there are always something happening especially near fanfest...

The most extreme that I have ever seen was once when we caught one ex-member, that hacked other member Account and "destroyed" a 4 year old char with all assets from another member. (We matched his IP provided by CCP with our TS3 server IP log. Same IP in the same city, with him typing and talking to everyone using it, and more some other facts making 100% sure that it was him). Yes, one of our directors works with Digital security and created a big report of it.

We sent it to CCP, the destroyed char was somewhat revived (manny assets lost in the process, and the player left EVE). The hacker lost his Char, and if I remember someone sued him in RL but I'm not sure what happened after that...

Anyway, the members personal information are protected by law, and we can not "sell" it or anything like that. And only a few are allowed to see/use it...(It is really useful to call someone if allowed to warn them preventing assets losses, or sending a package with the last "EVE Maps" Book making someone really happy!)

All In-Game issues are solved In-Game.

But I think my corp is an exception... Don't spread your personal information around... fallow the EULA, read the small lines of every contract, and don't give your password to others! Don't fly what you can't afford to lose! and Fly safe!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#20 - 2013-03-02 11:03:49 UTC
I would agree with the OP that EVE is quite a paradox. Joining a corp/allowing members to join requires a modicum of trust, however EVE is the absolute last place you should ever trust anyone to do anything except stab you in the back.

If I remember correctly from the last CSM minutes, even CCP is aware that the lack of trust makes it a bit difficult on newbies.
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