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The Isk vs risk of rad and mags ;[
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Makavelia
National Industries
#1 - 2013-03-01 00:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
For the last weeks I've been running a lot of rad/mag sites on and off in low sec (i also jump clone to high sec places for other ecploration). In that time i've made about 100mil loot ;/// from all the low sec sites combined. I do enjoy exploration and isk is not my entire drive but cmon.. 100mil in that level of time is realy bad.

I can make that in 1-3 hours high sec from many ways with minimum risk. I can also make that and more form just 1 high sec 3. or 4.10.


Also, my other small gripe with how bad the sites are is the amount of risk compared to runing a low sec 4.10. Acceleration gates are a realy big boost in the plex runners survival chance for obvious reasons. In a rad/mag assuming the place is pre-probed, any pirate can stalk you with a ops then point you for blob jump. Yet, with that added ease to point you, less reward for the site?.

I got 1 daredevil bpc about a month ago.. and since then just the usual crap.


Btw. I don't mind a little production either. I got a few nice T2 bpc's form a archy site other day and it would have been great if the mag sites actualy droped loot at arate you could put them to use..

Is that not the whole point of profession sites >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?. The rate is so low that if i continue to run all sites, i shall have about 50 bpc's before i have made enough salvy just to run a decent copy.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#2 - 2013-03-01 03:58:08 UTC
I guess what you describe is true, although it does depend a bit on regions and i think radars are not really that bad compared to mags (highec - lowsec radars there could be more distinction in rewards).

Gated complexes already were relatively safe when i started to do lowsec. Occasionially there were some people camping a 4/10, i haven't seen that in ages. Nowadays it is even safer. You can't get into a gated complex anymore without getting decloaked - which has something to do with the mechanism that was introduced to make you approach stargates until you decloak.
Zoltan Lazar
#3 - 2013-03-01 04:37:17 UTC
LS radars are worth a lot, mags are pretty bad, generally done only if desperate.

The real isk is in DED sites.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-03-01 06:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: St Mio
I was going to write a long post about this a couple of days ago but I'll try and keep it short.

Risk should equal reward, but it doesn't.

In exploration, reward is more linked to a ratio of the best sites you can run in the least amount of time.

What many explorers think is: As long as you can farm DED 4/10s in high-sec with (pratically) 0 risk (and effort), and without other players interfering*, why bother moving to low/null? Better drops are only better if you're rolling the dice (by opening the loot can) the same amount of times.

You choose: 4x chances of getting a C-type Medium Shield Booster, or 1x chance of getting an A-type one?**

* Only players in highsec that interfere with your DED 4/10 are others in T3s. In low/null, it's everyone who isn't blue.
** These numbers are made up.

Edit: Obligatory:
* Nerf high-sec DED 4/10s
* Nerf DSP
* Ban T3s from high-sec exploration
* Reward players for exploring in risky space instead of in high-sec.
Mokepoke
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-03-01 10:39:25 UTC
St Mio wrote:
I was going to write a long post about this a couple of days ago but I'll try and keep it short.

Risk should equal reward, but it doesn't.

In exploration, reward is more linked to a ratio of the best sites you can run in the least amount of time.

What many explorers think is: As long as you can farm DED 4/10s in high-sec with (pratically) 0 risk (and effort), and without other players interfering*, why bother moving to low/null? Better drops are only better if you're rolling the dice (by opening the loot can) the same amount of times.

You choose: 4x chances of getting a C-type Medium Shield Booster, or 1x chance of getting an A-type one?**

* Only players in highsec that interfere with your DED 4/10 are others in T3s. In low/null, it's everyone who isn't blue.
** These numbers are made up.

Edit: Obligatory:
* Nerf high-sec DED 4/10s
* Nerf DSP
* Ban T3s from high-sec exploration
* Reward players for exploring in risky space instead of in high-sec.


I agree that the risk/reward ratio should be adjusted a bit, but I don't think it's as bad as you say. There are plenty of radar sites out in low sec, especially if you avoid the high traffic areas and the systems that are usually gate-camped.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-03-01 10:45:05 UTC
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
LS radars are worth a lot, mags are pretty bad, generally done only if desperate.


I would say that over time income of radar and mag sites are pretty much the same, the problem with mag sites is that it's all or nothing. When you hit the jackpot and get 3-4 intact armor plates, it makes up for the majority of the sites that give basically nothing.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-03-01 11:18:12 UTC
Are you saying nerf hi-sec exploration?

Exploration in most hi-sec are already unbelievable boring is most regions, you spend 90% of the time scanning and when when you finally find something worth clearing you need to blitz it before 2-3 other people show up.

It least in low-sec you get a chance to do some sites, each and everyone of them might not pay multiple billions of isk, but at least you are not constantly listening to the annoying sound while the scan is running.

In the end exploration in low-sec is really not that dangerous, you can clear all sites except for the hardest combat sites flying a tech 2 fitted battlecruiser. Most bears are so afraid of losing a ship that even the thought of losing a insure battlecruiser, which totals at 50-60M isk, is unthinkable unless the reward is in the billions of isk.

Normally i fly around low-sec unscouted, and i hardly ever loose a ship. People don't normally pre-scan the sites and return in a combat ship to kill you, and you can detect probes on d-scan, making exploration site pretty safe.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Mokepoke
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-03-01 12:09:47 UTC
dexington wrote:
Are you saying nerf hi-sec exploration?

Exploration in most hi-sec are already unbelievable boring is most regions, you spend 90% of the time scanning and when when you finally find something worth clearing you need to blitz it before 2-3 other people show up.

It least in low-sec you get a chance to do some sites, each and everyone of them might not pay multiple billions of isk, but at least you are not constantly listening to the annoying sound while the scan is running.

In the end exploration in low-sec is really not that dangerous, you can clear all sites except for the hardest combat sites flying a tech 2 fitted battlecruiser. Most bears are so afraid of losing a ship that even the thought of losing a insure battlecruiser, which totals at 50-60M isk, is unthinkable unless the reward is in the billions of isk.

Normally i fly around low-sec unscouted, and i hardly ever loose a ship. People don't normally pre-scan the sites and return in a combat ship to kill you, and you can detect probes on d-scan, making exploration site pretty safe.


Exactly. Check the map for possible gate-camps, keep your eye on d-scan and align to a safespot or station when a pirate gang comes rolling through and 90% of the time you'll be fine.

Second option: skill up some more and reap the rewards of wormhole daytripping.
Makavelia
National Industries
#9 - 2013-03-01 20:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
I ran 4 rad sites last night and made 45 mil estimated market.

In less than the duration to find/run those mags i could have ran 10 HS maelstrom incursions, gave HALF the earnings away.. and still made more isk. Not gune factor in LP or the fact maelstrom aint a mach.

The problem i think is that theirs to many mag rads in both low and high. They realy need to consider reducing the amount by 70% or so, but double (at-least) the reward for doing them.

It realy feels like you have to do 10 rad sites just to make what you can in a single 4.10. But the dowtime between running 10 differant sites is ofc, hostiles.. and the fact you need to find suiteble systems that rng those sigs anyway.. ontop of killing more rats per 10 rad sites than you would in a single 4.10. Too much volume for to little reward.
Prekaz
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#10 - 2013-03-01 21:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Prekaz
At some point, somewhere along the way, someone uttered the phrase "risk vs. reward" and ever since, dumb people have been mindlessly perverting it into assertions that "risk must equal reward" ever since.

It's a guideline, not a rule. In general, there should be some correlation between the risk of an activity and its potential to reward, but it is only one of MANY factors involved in an extremely complex balancing equation, and anyone with a pulse and a room temperature IQ can plainly see that, all on its own, risk does not necessarily EQUATE to reward for the vast majority of activities in Eve.

Take this, for example:

Quote:
In exploration, reward is more linked to a ratio of the best sites you can run in the least amount of time.


Jesus, really? I.... wow. I never would have guessed that income for a given activity is closely tied to one's ability to do that activity quickly. It's not like it's painfully axiomatic or anything.

In missions, reward is more linked to the number of missions you can run in the least amount of time. Sure, the reward for any individual mission is adjusted somewhat based on the difficulty of the mission, but as everyone knows, the end result is that they're ALL trivial and relatively risk-free.

If you're ratting, your earnings are going to be closely tied to the number of rats you can kill in a given period of time. If you're manufacturing, your earnings are going to be closely tied to the number of lines you can run.


Risk Vs. Reward is a factor that deserves consideration in income-balancing, but this quasi-religious worship of this one, solitary ideology has been out of hand for a really long time, now, despite the fact that it CLEARLY doesn't have the meaning that so many people pretend it does (otherwise, your mission running would be considered a charitable donation :D).
Makavelia
National Industries
#11 - 2013-03-02 00:22:24 UTC
Prekaz wrote:
At some point, somewhere along the way, someone uttered the phrase "risk vs. reward" and ever since, dumb people have been mindlessly perverting it into assertions that "risk must equal reward" ever since.

It's a guideline, not a rule. In general, there should be some correlation between the risk of an activity and its potential to reward, but it is only one of MANY factors involved in an extremely complex balancing equation, and anyone with a pulse and a room temperature IQ can plainly see that, all on its own, risk does not necessarily EQUATE to reward for the vast majority of activities in Eve.

Take this, for example:

Quote:
In exploration, reward is more linked to a ratio of the best sites you can run in the least amount of time.


Jesus, really? I.... wow. I never would have guessed that income for a given activity is closely tied to one's ability to do that activity quickly. It's not like it's painfully axiomatic or anything.

In missions, reward is more linked to the number of missions you can run in the least amount of time. Sure, the reward for any individual mission is adjusted somewhat based on the difficulty of the mission, but as everyone knows, the end result is that they're ALL trivial and relatively risk-free.

If you're ratting, your earnings are going to be closely tied to the number of rats you can kill in a given period of time. If you're manufacturing, your earnings are going to be closely tied to the number of lines you can run.


Risk Vs. Reward is a factor that deserves consideration in income-balancing, but this quasi-religious worship of this one, solitary ideology has been out of hand for a really long time, now, despite the fact that it CLEARLY doesn't have the meaning that so many people pretend it does (otherwise, your mission running would be considered a charitable donation :D).


Those are far, far more static and safe ways of making isk. Even low sec ratting.. if somebody enters system just warp to safe and cloak. When they leave, on you go.

In a exploration site, soon as you see a combat probe out you need to leave, and the site will despawn. You can't stay as static with exploration (unlike warping form belt to belt same empty system) becuase you need to travel and that gives far more chance for other players to get in the way of what you want to do (unlike missions or production for example).

Those are the kind of risks i also consider with low sec exploration, not just losing ships.