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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2013-02-28 01:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
...Scordite also outvalues Crokite, the main roid to go for Zydrine, for value per mining cycle.


That's because there are too many null miners and they are flooding the market with cheap zydrine.
No that's stupid. Nullsec is a small minority of players, of which a very small minority mines ore. People complain that 'nullsec is dead and noone lives there' with one breath and that there is 'too many miners and activity' the next. The relatively miniscule amount of highends needed to buidl things however was balanced in 2003 and has nothing to do with EVE in practice. Not 'too much industry and activity'. The answer to both these problems is the introduction of superveld

So the answer is to devalue the mining profession again?

No the answer is to admit that the regional balance system of 'tons of low-end mins in safe space and small amounts of high-end mins to build things' is a failed concept because, like in real life systems, ordered systems inevitably develop more and more effective and efficient ways then the past (also known as 'progress'), which is why high-end mining has steadily devalued (barring buffs) since EVE's beta. If it were merely a 'isk/hr' problem, you could change the BP reqs and be done with it, but the truth is that the idea of null as 'resource extraction-based' economy is obsolete and flawed of itself, and should be able to sustain its own material needs internally so that it could develop true empires and advanced societies instead of the sophisticated pre-industrial mining camps protected by militia systems we have now.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#582 - 2013-02-28 02:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Zarcan wrote:
You yourselves are the reason null isn't as profitable as you'd like anymore. You've exhausted it. You've streamlined it, you've made it easy and decreased everything to it's lowest possible point of resistance to the point where it won't go down anymore, and then you turn around and look at hi-sec and realize you've ruined your own profits.
So 20% of the active player base managed to exhaust of the profitability of the majority of EVE's space by extremely light PvE activty (countered by having more PvP then all other regions combined) and that's some sort of collective moral failure of the players (for playing the game) and not a design flaw by CCP?

Quote:
Yeah we've got lots of inflation, but that's basic economics, people. That's not a problem or a fault of CPP. The only real way to keep this moving along and fun for us is to introduce new materials and components that are initially high in value, and then decrease as supply expands.
...which you propose to solve by... adding different flavors of resource extraction into the game?

Howabout just fix industry?
Tesal
#583 - 2013-02-28 02:05:27 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
...Scordite also outvalues Crokite, the main roid to go for Zydrine, for value per mining cycle.


That's because there are too many null miners and they are flooding the market with cheap zydrine.
No that's stupid. Nullsec is a small minority of players, of which a very small minority mines ore. People complain that 'nullsec is dead and noone lives there' with one breath and that there is 'too many miners and activity' the next. The relatively miniscule amount of highends needed to buidl things however was balanced in 2003 and has nothing to do with EVE in practice. Not 'too much industry and activity'. The answer to both these problems is the introduction of superveld


There has been an uptick in highend supply. You didn't used to be able to upgrade systems and relied on truesec for your ore spawns. People weren't stripping entire grav sites back then. We also had highends coming from drone poo and mission loot and both of those have been nerfed. People are definitely mining in null, enough so that the price of zydrine fell even after the Drone regions nerf. Highend minerals aren't spawning in trader hangars in Jita, they are being mined.

Superveld would probably be worth more than arkanor the way people make it sound.
Zarcan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#584 - 2013-02-28 02:11:32 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Zarcan wrote:
You yourselves are the reason null isn't as profitable as you'd like anymore. You've exhausted it. You've streamlined it, you've made it easy and decreased everything to it's lowest possible point of resistance to the point where it won't go down anymore, and then you turn around and look at hi-sec and realize you've ruined your own profits.
So 20% of the active player base managed to exhaust of the profitability of the majority of EVE's space by extremely light PvE activty (countered by having more PvP then all other regions combined) and that's some sort of collective moral failure of the players (for playing the game) and not a design flaw by CCP?

Quote:
Yeah we've got lots of inflation, but that's basic economics, people. That's not a problem or a fault of CPP. The only real way to keep this moving along and fun for us is to introduce new materials and components that are initially high in value, and then decrease as supply expands.
...which you propose to solve by... adding different flavors of resource extraction into the game?

Howabout just fix industry?



Nah man, nothing about corrupt morals or anything, I'm not criticizing alliances actions, just explaining what's happened over the years.

I'm a political economist, not a nullsec expert, so I can only contribute as such. Nerfing hisec doesn't fix nullsec, it just alienates people like me who distance ourselves from the sociopathic tendencies of people null alliances.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2013-02-28 02:16:24 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
...Scordite also outvalues Crokite, the main roid to go for Zydrine, for value per mining cycle.


That's because there are too many null miners and they are flooding the market with cheap zydrine.
No that's stupid. Nullsec is a small minority of players, of which a very small minority mines ore. People complain that 'nullsec is dead and noone lives there' with one breath and that there is 'too many miners and activity' the next. The relatively miniscule amount of highends needed to buidl things however was balanced in 2003 and has nothing to do with EVE in practice. Not 'too much industry and activity'. The answer to both these problems is the introduction of superveld

So the answer is to devalue the mining profession again?

No the answer is to admit that the regional balance system of 'tons of low-end mins in safe space and small amounts of high-end mins to build things' is a failed concept because, like in real life systems, ordered systems inevitably develop more and more effective and efficient ways then the past (also known as 'progress'), which is why high-end mining has steadily devalued (barring buffs) since EVE's beta. If it were merely a 'isk/hr' problem, you could change the BP reqs and be done with it, but the truth is that the idea of null as 'resource extraction-based' economy is obsolete and flawed of itself, and should be able to sustain its own material needs internally so that it could develop true empires and advanced societies instead of the sophisticated pre-industrial mining camps protected by militia systems we have now.

I would agree were it not for the fact that there are upper limits on the systems which the players can utilize to increase extraction efficiencies. The fact that this bar has increased considerably as new, better tools are introduced is a strong portion of the reason for the current situation. I think there is something worth maintaining in the import/export relationship between security statuses but also that mineral requirements can and should be rebalanced accordingly to account for efficiencies in extraction which have come about as a direct result of CCP's creation and buffs to mining specific tools.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#586 - 2013-02-28 02:18:12 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
...Scordite also outvalues Crokite, the main roid to go for Zydrine, for value per mining cycle.


That's because there are too many null miners and they are flooding the market with cheap zydrine.
No that's stupid. Nullsec is a small minority of players, of which a very small minority mines ore. People complain that 'nullsec is dead and noone lives there' with one breath and that there is 'too many miners and activity' the next. The relatively miniscule amount of highends needed to buidl things however was balanced in 2003 and has nothing to do with EVE in practice. Not 'too much industry and activity'. The answer to both these problems is the introduction of superveld


There has been an uptick in highend supply. You didn't used to be able to upgrade systems and relied on truesec for your ore spawns. People weren't stripping entire grav sites back then. We also had highends coming from drone poo and mission loot and both of those have been nerfed. People are definitely mining in null, enough so that the price of zydrine fell even after the Drone regions nerf. Highend minerals aren't spawning in trader hangars in Jita, they are being mined.
Before any of these changes were made (pre-dominion, CSM reps (Zastrow) were bringing up the steady decline in null individual income.

The problem isn't people using their space (gasp), it's that the high-end component of the building recipe was balanced in the day when mining was done in 2004 with a mining arbitrator

Quote:
Superveld would probably be worth more than arkanor the way people make it sound.

It would only have to yield 50% more trit then veldspar to make that possible.
Anonymously Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#587 - 2013-02-28 02:25:08 UTC
Does anyone have the correct statistics and % of people who are in null or high-sec and who of them is mining? I am very interested to see some real factual statistics.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#588 - 2013-02-28 03:37:43 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Celly Smunt wrote:
I do however wish that whichever end of the route line the next gate was going to jump you to would flash or change color or something so we'd at least know which end of topsy turvy we are on.

It's generally safe to assume that would be the brightest star.


I would have thought so too, but sometimes, the brightest star (to me) is in the middle of the route.
I also saw someone mention elsewhere that the AP line leads right to the gate and I've not seen that either, so I'm thinking i must have a setting off somewhere.

idk, I'll keep messing with it and see.

ty
o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2013-02-28 04:33:33 UTC
Zarcan wrote:
The reason Null isn't insanely profitable anymore isn't because of some fault of the devs, it's because years and years of free market balancing (and massive nullsec alliances streamlining logistics of nullsec mining) have driven the prices down to the point where it's not really that different from high sec space anymore.

You yourselves are the reason null isn't as profitable as you'd like anymore. You've exhausted it. You've streamlined it, you've made it easy and decreased everything to it's lowest possible point of resistance to the point where it won't go down anymore, and then you turn around and look at hi-sec and realize you've ruined your own profits.

you can only be talking about mining so i gotta ask you

how did this happen in nullsec when the vast majority of miners and botters have been mining interruption-free in highsec this whole time

Quote:
it just alienates people like me who distance ourselves from the sociopathic tendencies of people null alliances.

a large number of sociopaths working together in a structured group eh
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#590 - 2013-02-28 04:46:53 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Zarcan wrote:
The reason Null isn't insanely profitable anymore isn't because of some fault of the devs, it's because years and years of free market balancing (and massive nullsec alliances streamlining logistics of nullsec mining) have driven the prices down to the point where it's not really that different from high sec space anymore.

You yourselves are the reason null isn't as profitable as you'd like anymore. You've exhausted it. You've streamlined it, you've made it easy and decreased everything to it's lowest possible point of resistance to the point where it won't go down anymore, and then you turn around and look at hi-sec and realize you've ruined your own profits.

you can only be talking about mining so i gotta ask you

how did this happen in nullsec when the vast majority of miners and botters have been mining interruption-free in highsec this whole time

I'm not understanding how miners who choose to remain in highsec detracts from miners in nullsec trying to maximize their yield over time efficiency. Or are you saying the nullsec miner population hasn't increased or that they wouldn't have taken advantage of the creation of mining specific tools or their buffs?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#591 - 2013-02-28 04:56:38 UTC
vOv imma not trying to claim anything in this case, imma pretty ignorant to be honest

i'm just questioning the claim that 'nullsec ore prices are lower because nullseccers over-mined it'

one, because surely if anything is over-mined it's highsec lowends (they're fine); and two, because arkonor and mercoxit are still good money
Zarcan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#592 - 2013-02-28 05:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarcan
Hi sec mining renders higher volume demanded mats. Sure ABCs are rare, but they also don't need as much Morphite as you need Veld. It goes without saying that Hisec has more miners, as hisec has 90% of the minerals most ships need.

That's why when I go into a wh with my retriever and mine Arkanor until I'm full, I make less money than if I mined veld.

I'd love to see all ABC ores disappear from the game for a week and see how quick this crap resets.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#593 - 2013-02-28 05:03:13 UTC
merxocit and arkonor are still the most valuable ores per m3 btw
Zarcan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#594 - 2013-02-28 05:11:44 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
merxocit and arkonor are still the most valuable ores per m3 btw


Sure, wasn't a figure like 23% more profitable given earlier? Still not enough to make people like me reconsider the potential losses. Due to the fact that someone can fill a JF with ark and get it on the market in Jita and be more comfortable logistically than me and my little retriever with my friend.

Not that that's a problem necessarily, but that's how the free market is. I could go down to the river and mine for gold right now but chances are the big digger downstream has it all
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#595 - 2013-02-28 07:28:33 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
The value of Zydrine is already 150x the value of Tritanium. It won't work.

YK


But Crokite isn't 150x the value per m^3 of Veldspar.

So answer the question: would you go to 0.0 if Zydrine was 1 billion ISK per unit?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zarcan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#596 - 2013-02-28 07:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarcan
Malcanis wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
The value of Zydrine is already 150x the value of Tritanium. It won't work.

YK


But Crokite isn't 150x the value per m^3 of Veldspar.

So answer the question: would you go to 0.0 if Zydrine was 1 billion ISK per unit?


You're equating a relatively easy mineral to aquire with a quantity of money that everyone aspires to. You cannot compare these two.

The only way that zydrine would be 1bil isk per unit is if it's demand was sky high and supply was practically non-existant; which won't happen, therefore, your point doesn't have much relevance to anything at all.

People can make a lot of money in nullsec doing exploration; not 1bil per unit, but in the hundreds of millions for a good rader/mag, so your question is somewhat answerable already: I will only go into nullsec and risk losing my ship if I have enough money in reserve to feel comfortable losing a ship, which is logically why Highsec has to offer a decent amount of money in the first place.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#597 - 2013-02-28 07:52:04 UTC
Zarcan wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
The value of Zydrine is already 150x the value of Tritanium. It won't work.

YK


But Crokite isn't 150x the value per m^3 of Veldspar.

So answer the question: would you go to 0.0 if Zydrine was 1 billion ISK per unit?


You're equating a relatively easy mineral to aquire with a quantity of money that everyone aspires to. You cannot compare these two.

The only way that zydrine would be 1bil isk per unit is if it's demand was sky high and supply was practically non-existant; which won't happen, therefore, your point doesn't have much relevance to anything at all.

People can make a lot of money in nullsec doing exploration; not 1bil per unit, but in the hundreds of millions for a good rader/mag, so your question is somewhat answerable already: I will only go into nullsec and risk losing my ship if I have enough money in reserve to feel comfortable losing a ship, which is logically why Highsec has to offer a decent amount of money in the first place.


It's not about the realistic likelihood for Zydrine being that price, it's about the OP making absolute statements. I want to know if he really believes what he says or if he's just thinking in terms of "everyone knows" cliches that he hasn't really thought about.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#598 - 2013-02-28 07:53:47 UTC
I just have to say... 30 pages and still not locked from people trolling. This has to be a new record for the realm of rational discourse.

*claps*

Keep it up Smile

No, seriously, keep it up.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#599 - 2013-02-28 08:00:33 UTC
Some of you should rethink your agreements.

CCP, in the dev blog about the mining ship changes, stated that after inferno high sec saw a dramatic increase in mining activity. It was CCP that confirmed there are more people mining in high sec then ever. They even indicated that a lot of those miners had left null.

It doesn't matter if an ore carries more value.
More value does not automatically make it A BETTER value.

They didn't move back to high because CCP made the ore worth more.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#600 - 2013-02-28 08:05:43 UTC
whatever 'rational discourse' there might be owes nothing to the irrational original post fyi