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[i][u]UNSAFE RIGHT-HAND BUTTON TRADE[/u][/i]
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The Breath
Brave New Eden
#1 - 2013-02-26 16:30:46 UTC
Hello, dear game management and developers, i found a big leak in trade by right-hand button.
A few days ago, a big liar invited me to a conversation and said wanted to buy Megathron Blueprint for 970millions, but my BPO set in contract for 998millions, i cant change the price in contracts, so he said we can trade by right-hand button.I never trade by the right-hand button, i think it would be safe, but then i realized that i was wrong, because my internet is so delayed!!! And i saw the price reduced to 97millions from 970millions after i clicked the accept button!!! So its a unsafe mechanism for someone in lag!!!
In the other hand, i dont understand why the buyer can change ISK that he offered after he pressed the offer button, but the seller cant change his items if he put items into the trade window? Its obviously impartial trading. But whats the safe mechanism? I think the saffe mechanism is that, the buyer can only offer once price in every one right-hand button trade. If u want to change the price, you have to cancel this trade and set another new right-hand button trade. No liars can change the offered price by this trade way, so its more safe trade :)
I hope someone can raise the safety of right-hand button trading like above or anyother ways, because more and more player's interests will be damaged if there are on one to correct.

[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2948446#post2948446][GOOD IDEAS] Part I - Slot Transfer Rigs[/url] [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3156198#post3156198][GOOD IDEAS] Part II - Ship Directiveness Modification Rigs[/url] 
Raven DarkSouless
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-26 16:36:27 UTC
It is a common trade scam. Best bet is you make a contract or put it on the market.
The Breath
Brave New Eden
#3 - 2013-02-26 17:06:25 UTC
Raven DarkSouless wrote:
It is a common trade scam. Best bet is you make a contract or put it on the market.

no, its not common, look the detail, the right-hand button trade has flaws by itself

[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2948446#post2948446][GOOD IDEAS] Part I - Slot Transfer Rigs[/url] [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3156198#post3156198][GOOD IDEAS] Part II - Ship Directiveness Modification Rigs[/url] 
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#4 - 2013-02-26 17:09:02 UTC
Contracts are the safe mechanism. Don't use station trade.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-02-26 19:42:56 UTC
The Breath wrote:
Raven DarkSouless wrote:
It is a common trade scam. Best bet is you make a contract or put it on the market.

no, its not common, look the detail, the right-hand button trade has flaws by itself


There is no flaw. You got screwed, and learned a hard lesson in the process.

Next time cancel your outstanding contract, and make a new one for the buyer in question at the agreed upon price.
Loretta Carac
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-02-26 19:51:25 UTC
The Breath wrote:
But whats the safe mechanism? I think the saffe mechanism is that, the buyer can only offer once price in every one right-hand button trade. If u want to change the price, you have to cancel this trade and set another new right-hand button trade.


Already works this way for items - you cant remove items from the trade, why should you be able to remove ISK?

For all that the OP got scammed (instant credibility loss) and sounds like a moron referring to trade windows as the right-hand button trade, he has a point. I support this idea. A feature that is so dangerously useless that the vast majority of players advise never to use the trade window, is broken and needs fixed.
Zella Polaris
Pitchfork Uprising Holdings
#7 - 2013-02-27 09:26:02 UTC
Confirmation window with summary, anyone?

Pitchfork Militia, part of Catastrophic Uprising, is recruiting. 0.0 SOV, emphasis on PvP, NBSI
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#8 - 2013-02-27 10:38:34 UTC
OP has only himself to blame for being a victim of such an obvious scam. Should have waited a bit before accepting trade, then re-checked isk, then waited a bit longer, re-checked again and only then accepted if everything is alright.

While double confirmation trade is a nice feature to add - it will reduce isk sink rate as players will use it more to avoid paying taxes and fees (will increase local spam as a side effect). Current system offers you a choice: safe trade on market and contracts or fast but risky direct trade.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#9 - 2013-02-27 12:36:33 UTC
While the OP may be a little to blame for falling for a 'Known Scam'....

However, the fact that the Trade window is flawed this badly is really the fault of CCP. Once you enter an item or money, you should have to cancel the trade and start again if you want to change what you offered.

Every other MMO on the planet can get this right, why can't EVE.?

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-02-27 12:41:30 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
While the OP may be a little to blame for falling for a 'Known Scam'....

However, the fact that the Trade window is flawed this badly is really the fault of CCP. Once you enter an item or money, you should have to cancel the trade and start again if you want to change what you offered.

Every other MMO on the planet can get this right, why can't EVE.?


^Pretty much this. To be able to change price after the other guy accepts is a laugh, lol. Normally a game with this mechanics wouldn't make it out of beta.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-02-27 12:53:41 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
While the OP may be a little to blame for falling for a 'Known Scam'....

However, the fact that the Trade window is flawed this badly is really the fault of CCP. Once you enter an item or money, you should have to cancel the trade and start again if you want to change what you offered.

Every other MMO on the planet can get this right, why can't EVE.?


Because EVE ONLINE is not just another MMO (**SO PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE IT TO OTHER MMOs**), other mmo will get your a** banned for doing such a thing.

Did you ever considered that the trade window was designed that way to facilitate scamming.... i mean scamming is a profession on itself, and its an allowed practice in eve universe.
Making everything anti-scamming in game will kill a part of the game, so leave it as it is.

Its his own fault for using station trading to trade such a valuable item. He could've just canceled the contract and make a new one at the agreed price. Or use the trade channels to sell your Blue Prints.

So please if u get scammed don`t come to cry about it, deal with it learn from it and if u have the skills do the same to others.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#12 - 2013-02-27 13:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
sabre906 wrote:

^Pretty much this. To be able to change price after the other guy accepts is a laugh, lol. Normally a game with this mechanics wouldn't make it out of beta.

That is wrong. If other party changes price after you accept - your acceptance is cancelled automatically. So there is trade protection in EvE. If you dont know how it works - dont blame the game, blame yourself.
OP was punished for not paying attention during trade of valuable item.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Loretta Carac
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-02-27 16:29:56 UTC
Radhe Amatin wrote:

Did you ever considered that the trade window was designed that way to facilitate scamming.... i mean scamming is a profession on itself, and its an allowed practice in eve universe.
Making everything anti-scamming in game will kill a part of the game, so leave it as it is.


Other forms of scamming are all avoidable with enough meticulous preparation and reading and re-reading of the terms of the deal. Or just having the common sense to realise something is too good to be true.

The trade window scam however is not avoidable in any way. Use the trade window enough, and eventually you will be unlucky enough that the scammer changes the isk while you are clicking accept. Noone has an instant reaction time, and of course there's ping to consider too.

The trade window is unique in that the ONLY way to not get scammed eventually by it is just to not use it. Therefore it's useless for it's intended purpose and will eventually become completely useless for scamming too as more and more people realize that they have no choice but to completely avoid it.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#14 - 2013-02-27 16:55:53 UTC
Loretta Carac wrote:
Other forms of scamming are all avoidable with enough meticulous preparation and reading and re-reading of the terms of the deal. Or just having the common sense to realise something is too good to be true.

The trade window scam however is not avoidable in any way. Use the trade window enough, and eventually you will be unlucky enough that the scammer changes the isk while you are clicking accept. Noone has an instant reaction time, and of course there's ping to consider too.

The trade window is unique in that the ONLY way to not get scammed eventually by it is just to not use it. Therefore it's useless for it's intended purpose and will eventually become completely useless for scamming too as more and more people realize that they have no choice but to completely avoid it.

If you pay enough attention during trade - chances of being scammed are VERY slim. If trade is legit - other party will understand you hesitation and carefulness (if you check and re-check and take your time), if they force you to hurry up for ANY reason - then there is something fishy about this. If you want to avoid even that slim chance - use private contract (if trade is legit - other party will surely accept if its via contract).

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#15 - 2013-02-27 17:05:08 UTC

Two points:

1.) This is an undetectable scam... and it's pretty craptastic design! For those not familiar, here is how it works...
I offer to buy your fancy item at some decent price...
I make up a reason to use the station trade window rather than a contract (hiding the sale is a very common theme).
When the trade window opens, I enter the correct value, and then quickly change it to some other value (much lower).
On the mark's window, they only see the original value, and the station trade window does NOT update with the currently offered amount.
They input their item, we hit accept.... I get the item, they get screwed....

The interface simply doesn't update with the currently offered value, which is just pisspoor programming, and CCP should be ashamed of it!

-- Note: while I used first person, I do not scam, and Agony has a very strict no-scamming allowed policy

2.) I'm ok with an imperfect system with the trade window, but there should be a warning window every time you use it that it doesn't update isk values readily/correctly, and you should use it with caution (of course with the usual make warning go away forever checkbox). Then people are adequately warned that station trading is imperfect and open to abuse. This would be 100% acceptable then because:
a.) the station trade window is simply a tool to bypass contracts. It doesn't involve a "cost" to setup, and it is essentially an untraceable transaction that somewhat obfuscates what's being traded. It's ok for it to be imperfect!
b.) There is a completely secure and viable alternative (the contract).
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#16 - 2013-02-27 18:22:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Two points:

1.) This is an undetectable scam... and it's pretty craptastic design! For those not familiar, here is how it works...
I offer to buy your fancy item at some decent price...
I make up a reason to use the station trade window rather than a contract (hiding the sale is a very common theme).
When the trade window opens, I enter the correct value, and then quickly change it to some other value (much lower).
On the mark's window, they only see the original value, and the station trade window does NOT update with the currently offered amount.
They input their item, we hit accept.... I get the item, they get screwed....

The interface simply doesn't update with the currently offered value, which is just pisspoor programming, and CCP should be ashamed of it!

-- Note: while I used first person, I do not scam, and Agony has a very strict no-scamming allowed policy

2.) I'm ok with an imperfect system with the trade window, but there should be a warning window every time you use it that it doesn't update isk values readily/correctly, and you should use it with caution (of course with the usual make warning go away forever checkbox). Then people are adequately warned that station trading is imperfect and open to abuse. This would be 100% acceptable then because:
a.) the station trade window is simply a tool to bypass contracts. It doesn't involve a "cost" to setup, and it is essentially an untraceable transaction that somewhat obfuscates what's being traded. It's ok for it to be imperfect!
b.) There is a completely secure and viable alternative (the contract).


And that is why party selling the item shouldnt hit accept 1st (and i'll repeat DO NOT HIT ACCEPT 1ST WHEN YOU SELL ITEM via direct trade). Make sure that paying side put correct number and hit accept (it updates correctly then). If paying party tries to change sum - they'll lose accept mark as soon as they open change isk window. Thats why you should pay more attention in direct trades.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#17 - 2013-02-27 18:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
I can only assume it was done intentionally (at some point) by a developer for scamming purposes as its a completely illogical design and the opposite way around to the implementation of 99% if not 100% of all other MMOs.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#18 - 2013-02-27 18:33:06 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

And that is why party selling the item shouldnt hit accept 1st (and i'll repeat DO NOT HIT ACCEPT 1ST WHEN YOU SELL ITEM via direct trade). Make sure that paying side put correct number and hit accept (it updates correctly then). If paying party tries to change sum - they'll lose accept mark as soon as they open change isk window. Thats why you should pay more attention in direct trades.


Exactly.

As far as I'm concerned, the in-station trade window is for two things: Direct trade with corp mates I trust, and scamming people who will fall for it. Everyone else gets a contract or buys it off the market. Contracts are cheap enough to issue that there's really no reason to direct trade with untrusted parties. If they can't handle having a contract issued to them, then they don't need what you're selling that badly.