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[Proposal] Cloaking , Scanning and Finding those bastards
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FoxBird Freir
Bloomberg Horizont
#21 - 2013-02-12 19:23:27 UTC
ehh, why not just say something like ''natural phenomena prevents your probes from detecting cloaked ships'', or ''already present spacial distortions makes the results of the scanning prosess useless''..

tho removing local wud be awesome.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-02-13 03:40:53 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Any attempt to address cloaking as a mechanic must meet 3 pre-reqs:

1) Address the omnipotence of local as an intel tool, and the extreme advantages it gives to the defender.
2) address stations and their perfect 24/7 protection for the defenders anytime #1 provides them with intel on hostiles
3) in no way, shape, or form, ruins my wormholes. i mean it, you break our holes, well come after you, and you dont want a bunch of angry wormholers having a vendetta against your alliance, doesnt end well.

Anything that could get SYJ, us, and Starbridge on the same page will not end well for the poor saps on the receiving end, that much I think we all can figure out. :)
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-02-13 12:54:02 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Krax As wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Psychology.
Though I am not sure that counts as a game mechanic. P


i see it almost the same as afk mining
but thats just me i guess. seems the big shots love it
You didn't answer the question.
I'll clarify it.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what game mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Because they show in local, AFK or not.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#24 - 2013-02-13 15:34:24 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Krax As wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Whilst pilots are cloaked and AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Psychology.
Though I am not sure that counts as a game mechanic. P


i see it almost the same as afk mining
but thats just me i guess. seems the big shots love it
You didn't answer the question.
I'll clarify it.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what game mechanic are they using to interact with you?


Because they show in local, AFK or not.


Showing up in local != interacting with anything/anyone
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2013-02-13 15:39:26 UTC

Any discussion of "finding cloaked vessels" must also include changes to our instant omniscient local chat being used as an intel source....

This thread does not.....

/thread already...
Syaran
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-02-14 10:34:18 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Showing up in local != interacting with anything/anyone


I disagree. If you're in a hostile system, your very presence there is interacting with them. They have to be mindful of the possibility that they might get attacked. You're interacting with them in the same way that a hostile fleet x systems over does, it forces people to be mindful of their actions. As things stand, taking this option away would only serve to make nullsec safer, which most people will agree should never be the intent. If you want to live in 0.0 you have to deal with the consequences. That's why you'll get comments like "highsec is --> that way", those people are making the exact same point as I am.

Put yourself in the AFK cloaker's shoes for a minute, they have to invest a fair amount of time into it if they want to get any kills out of it. They have to park their character there for extended periods of time, time during which they cannot use that character to do anything else. Sure, they can go afk for a lot or even all of that time, that still means they are paying the opportunity cost of not using that character for anything else.

As others have said, with local in the current state, afk cloaking is a necessary evil, it is one of the few options you have if you want to disrupt your enemies' activities effectively. Until this is addressed, you won't find many people that will support your position.
Joe Zateki
Doom Sellers
#27 - 2013-02-24 22:21:22 UTC
How about we bring back the AFK-Auto log off Feature. But this time with an afk timer of 20 min. This way afk miners don't get kicked when the afk mine ( I usually change asteroid every 15 min).

Thank you.
viewtifuljoe
Anti Corp Corporation
#28 - 2013-02-24 22:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: viewtifuljoe
I think local should become like a WH local. Only see people that speak there.

Storyline: Concord had installed some, scanners next to the gates, that broadcasted the entry and exit of pilots in the systems.
or
Concord have them at there POS Cloaky POS off grid of the gates.

item used :System Scanning Array
(It would bring it back.)

That item would basically broadcast to alliance members /corp members or blues the intel to there channel.

Edit:

After reading myself, I see that my solution my not be the best to counter afk cloaky but Joe Zetski's might be good and would also reduce server load. But if we remove local we will need another tool to scan down a system, that won't work in a WH due to star radiation or what ever.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-02-26 11:23:11 UTC
Syaran wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Showing up in local != interacting with anything/anyone


I disagree. If you're in a hostile system, your very presence there is interacting with them. They have to be mindful of the possibility that they might get attacked. You're interacting with them in the same way that a hostile fleet x systems over does, it forces people to be mindful of their actions. As things stand, taking this option away would only serve to make nullsec safer, which most people will agree should never be the intent. If you want to live in 0.0 you have to deal with the consequences. That's why you'll get comments like "highsec is --> that way", those people are making the exact same point as I am.

Put yourself in the AFK cloaker's shoes for a minute, they have to invest a fair amount of time into it if they want to get any kills out of it. They have to park their character there for extended periods of time, time during which they cannot use that character to do anything else. Sure, they can go afk for a lot or even all of that time, that still means they are paying the opportunity cost of not using that character for anything else.

As others have said, with local in the current state, afk cloaking is a necessary evil, it is one of the few options you have if you want to disrupt your enemies' activities effectively. Until this is addressed, you won't find many people that will support your position.


Nothing wrong with any of this except....

AFK cloakers do all this at zero risk to themselves, so who exactly are the risk-adverse carebears here?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#30 - 2013-02-27 09:38:05 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

Nothing wrong with any of this except....

AFK cloakers do all this at zero risk to themselves, so who exactly are the risk-adverse carebears here?


So take cloakers off local.

If they dont appear in local, then they cant dissrupt anyones NullBearing.

Then the residents would just have to be a little more aware of the signs of an active cloaked vessel.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#31 - 2013-02-27 13:29:59 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Syaran wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


Showing up in local != interacting with anything/anyone


I disagree. If you're in a hostile system, your very presence there is interacting with them. They have to be mindful of the possibility that they might get attacked. You're interacting with them in the same way that a hostile fleet x systems over does, it forces people to be mindful of their actions. As things stand, taking this option away would only serve to make nullsec safer, which most people will agree should never be the intent. If you want to live in 0.0 you have to deal with the consequences. That's why you'll get comments like "highsec is --> that way", those people are making the exact same point as I am.

Put yourself in the AFK cloaker's shoes for a minute, they have to invest a fair amount of time into it if they want to get any kills out of it. They have to park their character there for extended periods of time, time during which they cannot use that character to do anything else. Sure, they can go afk for a lot or even all of that time, that still means they are paying the opportunity cost of not using that character for anything else.

As others have said, with local in the current state, afk cloaking is a necessary evil, it is one of the few options you have if you want to disrupt your enemies' activities effectively. Until this is addressed, you won't find many people that will support your position.


Nothing wrong with any of this except....

AFK cloakers do all this at zero risk to themselves, so who exactly are the risk-adverse carebears here?


Um it's still definitely the nullbears who dock/pos up because a single none-blue turns up in local. You whine about "AFK cloakers" having "zero risk" as if they SHOULD be at risk. Why should they be any more at risk than you are when you're docked up weeping because there's a neutral in locak?
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-27 15:49:28 UTC
maybe we have to go back to the basic of this discussion. I for one don´t think any place in eve should be 100% safe.
Even though I am probably more of Ferenghi at heart than a Klingon, I am against putting too many safety switches in the
game.

But: this game (as every good and balanced game out there) is nothing more than a very complicated game of rock-paper-scissor-lizard-spock but with spaceships.

Almost everything can be countered, except cloaky stuff.

I do respect those Cloaky Pilots that invest their online-time to be in system, and wait for their chance to strike.
I tip my hat to them.

But the major difference is the AFK in this whole scenario.

A MMO should be PLAYED, not merely activated.

I mean you could hide a complete fleet of thousands of ships in local (I am exaggerating of course), basically by just losing one highslot on all of them. And just leave em there at a safe spot. No Chance to find housands of ships. C´mon.

And please: of course this would not be a viable tactic, but it serves to make a point. Why should it be possible to hide forever?
why shouldnt there any tool / method in the game to find cloaked ships that are "just there forever" ?

it is not a matter of local chat or whatnot. this might be a problem but it obscures and bloats the starting point of this thread: the fact that cloakies cannot be detected and found in any way. if they so prefer they can stay cloaked forever. theres no way to force them to even PLAY THE GAME. i repeat what i said earlier: being afk does not mean you are playing the game. but it should be vital for any success in the game that you are required to be active and playing. thus the proposal of a tool / device / whatnot to find and expose afk cloakies. hell if there was another tool to see whos afk or not in a exhumer or barge i am all for it.

this is the proposal. nothing more. the rest might have to do with it, but its not the topic. that would be saying to fix railguns you have to fix lowsec, just because they are used there.

imagine a cloaky in a wormhole. no way to defend against it. how balanced it that ?

and again: an active cloaky pilot should always be able to easily avoind getting detected and caught. an AFK Pilot ? not so much.....
Marsan
#33 - 2013-02-28 01:01:10 UTC
Even if you get afk cloakers removed the problem will shift to leaving some sort of insanely fast frigate or interceptor that can't be caught in a random safe spot.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-02-28 18:56:29 UTC
Krax As wrote:
maybe we have to go back to the basic of this discussion. I for one don´t think any place in eve should be 100% safe.
Even though I am probably more of Ferenghi at heart than a Klingon, I am against putting too many safety switches in the
game.

But: this game (as every good and balanced game out there) is nothing more than a very complicated game of rock-paper-scissor-lizard-spock but with spaceships.

Almost everything can be countered, except cloaky stuff.

I do respect those Cloaky Pilots that invest their online-time to be in system, and wait for their chance to strike.
I tip my hat to them.

But the major difference is the AFK in this whole scenario.

A MMO should be PLAYED, not merely activated.

I mean you could hide a complete fleet of thousands of ships in local (I am exaggerating of course), basically by just losing one highslot on all of them. And just leave em there at a safe spot. No Chance to find housands of ships. C´mon.

And please: of course this would not be a viable tactic, but it serves to make a point. Why should it be possible to hide forever?
why shouldnt there any tool / method in the game to find cloaked ships that are "just there forever" ?

it is not a matter of local chat or whatnot. this might be a problem but it obscures and bloats the starting point of this thread: the fact that cloakies cannot be detected and found in any way. if they so prefer they can stay cloaked forever. theres no way to force them to even PLAY THE GAME. i repeat what i said earlier: being afk does not mean you are playing the game. but it should be vital for any success in the game that you are required to be active and playing. thus the proposal of a tool / device / whatnot to find and expose afk cloakies. hell if there was another tool to see whos afk or not in a exhumer or barge i am all for it.

this is the proposal. nothing more. the rest might have to do with it, but its not the topic. that would be saying to fix railguns you have to fix lowsec, just because they are used there.

imagine a cloaky in a wormhole. no way to defend against it. how balanced it that ?

and again: an active cloaky pilot should always be able to easily avoind getting detected and caught. an AFK Pilot ? not so much.....


As someone who has been on both ends of the "cloaky in WH" equation, I can tell you right now that there are ways to flush a cloaky out of one's system under certain conditions.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2013-03-03 16:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Krax As wrote:
it is not a matter of local chat or whatnot. this might be a problem but it obscures and bloats the starting point of this thread: the fact that cloakies cannot be detected and found in any way. if they so prefer they can stay cloaked forever. theres no way to force them to even PLAY THE GAME. i repeat what i said earlier: being afk does not mean you are playing the game. but it should be vital for any success in the game that you are required to be active and playing. thus the proposal of a tool / device / whatnot to find and expose afk cloakies. hell if there was another tool to see whos afk or not in a exhumer or barge i am all for it.

this is the proposal. nothing more. the rest might have to do with it, but its not the topic. that would be saying to fix railguns you have to fix lowsec, just because they are used there.

imagine a cloaky in a wormhole. no way to defend against it. how balanced it that ?

and again: an active cloaky pilot should always be able to easily avoind getting detected and caught. an AFK Pilot ? not so much.....
It has everything to do with local. For without local, AFKing is pointless in regards to psychological warfare.
Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, the only reason you know they are there, is because of local. You want to nerf the only tool available as a counter to local, AFKing.

You mention Wormhole space, but then fail to see that they don't ever complain about AFKing. There is a specific reason for this. Can you guess what it is?

The funny thing is, the balance is still in your favour. Because local's intel is guaranteed, 23.5/7. Whereas the psychological effects from AFKing, are not.
This is not a chicken and egg situation. Local came first, followed later by cloaks and then the idea that people could attempt to subvert the intel it gives. Do you honestly think that because local helps you, that others wouldn't try to use it against you?

No pilot cloaked, ever killed a pilot, stopped them using gates, docking, undocking, activating modules, mining, ratting etc. The only stopping you, is you.

It boils down to this. Cloaks already have counters, but not counters that would render the cloak pointless to fit. So no, cloaks should not be nerfed, until local's all seeing eye gets changed also. This would mean a package of changes, so you have to work for your intel. Then at the same time, changes to enable the finding of cloaked vessels could be included.
Until then you shouldn't gain even more intel on top of what is already, a very powerful intel tool.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Reachok
Cydaen Awareness
#36 - 2013-03-31 00:16:04 UTC
Ok, I'm jumping in here with a few lines. I'm looking (yes actually using the forum search tool) for a particular thread, else I'll start my own about cloakers.

Cloak is OP, m'kay?!?

You can effectively shut down an entire constellation with just a few cloakers. Please, don't tell me to change my game style, or use a defense force. Anyone who actually plays in 0.0 knows those are troll statements nothing more. Hot drop nullifies your defense force AND even when paid, pvp'rs will not sit as long as a miner will.


Simple fix(es):

1) Make the cloak consume fuel
and/or
2) Make it non repeatable, but give it a reasonable cycle time, say 30 minutes.

The bad guys went the other way, seriously....
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2013-03-31 01:10:49 UTC
Reachok wrote:
Ok, I'm jumping in here with a few lines. I'm looking (yes actually using the forum search tool) for a particular thread, else I'll start my own about cloakers.

Cloak is OP, m'kay?!?

You can effectively shut down an entire constellation with just a few cloakers. Please, don't tell me to change my game style, or use a defense force. Anyone who actually plays in 0.0 knows those are troll statements nothing more. Hot drop nullifies your defense force AND even when paid, pvp'rs will not sit as long as a miner will.


Simple fix(es):

1) Make the cloak consume fuel
and/or
2) Make it non repeatable, but give it a reasonable cycle time, say 30 minutes.
Those ideas are nothing new. Cloaks are fine and balanced.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Andracin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-03-31 02:41:17 UTC
I think null-sec dwellers will not be happy till there is a system upgrade module that won't let anyone without +10 standing use a cloak...
Ive both used the cloaking tactic and had it used and while it is annoying I think it is a legitimate terror tool to use against a hostile force. As for removing local...atleast with local you know there is a cloaker...I can't imagine the tears that would flow if suddenly the cloakers didn't need to cloak cause you wouldn't even know they were there until your dead....and before everyone starts yelling d-scan how many ratters in their cute little drakes and hurricanes are hitting d-scan or even know how to use it?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#39 - 2013-04-02 07:28:12 UTC
Reachok wrote:
Ok, I'm jumping in here with a few lines. I'm looking (yes actually using the forum search tool) for a particular thread, else I'll start my own about cloakers.

Cloak is OP, m'kay?!?

You can effectively shut down an entire constellation with just a few cloakers. Please, don't tell me to change my game style, or use a defense force. Anyone who actually plays in 0.0 knows those are troll statements nothing more. Hot drop nullifies your defense force AND even when paid, pvp'rs will not sit as long as a miner will.


Simple fix(es):

1) Make the cloak consume fuel
and/or
2) Make it non repeatable, but give it a reasonable cycle time, say 30 minutes.


A few cloaked AFK ships cannot shut down an entire constellation. They cannot, in fact, do anything. No modules can be activated while cloaked, no actions can be taken while AFK. They cannot shut down anything. The only people who can shut down the constellation are the residents.

Also what kind of imbecilic world do you live in where suggesting corporations/alliances in nullsec have defense fleets is nothing more than "troll statements"?

Go back to highsec, little bear.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#40 - 2013-04-02 12:22:42 UTC
Reachok wrote:
Ok, I'm jumping in here with a few lines. I'm looking (yes actually using the forum search tool) for a particular thread, else I'll start my own about cloakers.

Well, that's a decent start. Thank you for having the human decency for doing that.

Quote:
You can effectively shut down an entire constellation with just a few cloakers. Please, don't tell me to change my game style, or use a defense force. Anyone who actually plays in 0.0 knows those are troll statements nothing more. Hot drop nullifies your defense force AND even when paid, pvp'rs will not sit as long as a miner will.

No...no...no...did you not read any of the old threads when you used the search tool?

I had such high hopes for this one Cry

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
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