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Wild PC upgrade thread appeared!

Author
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#1 - 2013-02-26 02:58:21 UTC
Well guys its that part of the cycle where my computer is on the fritz, and I reckon the culprit is the Graphics card (ATI Radeon HD 5700) supporting 2 monitors. The Processor is an AMD Athlon quad core x4 630 and we have a 500w PSU in this system. For those interested, 8GB of RAM in the system and Windows 7 Premium.

This system was built when I was dirt poor and had a budget of £400, but now I'm going to budget maybe £200-300 to take it up to modern standards, or at the very least play youtube videos while playing Starcraft. I'm also mulling over the idea of an Uniteruptable Power Supply (UPS). No issues with the powergrid in the UK yet but I'm worried we might be looking at brownouts in the near future but that's politics for another time.

tl;dr

PC doesn't need to be uber, could take a budget of £100 for the GFX card to do a like for like replacement with the current Radeon, or should I go with an nVidia.

Thank you, and cookies and likes for all Bear

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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#2 - 2013-02-26 07:57:26 UTC

The processor is not very great by today's standards, but it will do just fine for most gaming, including EVE as long as you don't get into any huge fleet fights (not even the best processor would help a lot more in such cases though).
I don't think upgrading the CPU is really necessary at this point just yet, but hey, your choice.

Anyway, IF you decide to upgrade the CPU, you'll probably want to keep the motherboard, since if you'd buy a new one, that would be a pretty big hit to the overall budget.
Let's assume you got one that was just barely what you needed, so an AM3 socket one (not an AM3+ one). Could you please also post your actual motherboard model so we can check ?

There's not really a wide selection of more powerful AM3 socket CPUs selling right now, and this one looks like the best current option:
82 GBP -> AMD Phenom II X6 1045T, Sok AM3, 2.7GHz, 6MB Cache, 95W, Retail
(found on http://www.scan.co.uk/products/amd-phenom-ii-x6-1045t-sok-am3-27ghz-6mb-cache-95w-retail )
It's not really THAT much faster overall than your current one though - it even has a lower per-core frequency, but 2 extra cores and ever so slightly newer tech, so it's probably on par per core performance, with 50% more oomph for multithreaded stuff only (which EVE's physics engine is not really much a fan of just yet).
Whether that's even worth upgrading is up to you.
Personally, I wouldn't bother.

...

If you feel the need for a significantly more powerful CPU, I'm afraid you might need to go at least to an i5 3570, but that's 165-170 GBP, plus a new mobo to support it, at least another 70-75 GBP, for ~240 GBP total, which sort of exhausts your entire budget.
So, probably not worth it at this time.

...

The RAM amount should be more than sufficient for now. What type of RAM is it (frequency/timings) ? Also, again, knowing the motherboard model would help.
Probably best just leave the RAM as it is.

Kirjava wrote:
my computer is on the fritz, and I reckon the culprit is the Graphics card (ATI Radeon HD 5700)

First off, when you say "on the fritz", what exactly are the symptoms ? What works and what doesn't ? And how exactly does it fail working, is it working oddly or not at all ?

Also, that would either be a 5750 (stock TDP 86W) or a 5770 (stock TDP 108W), there's no 5700.
Neither of those are bad cards at all, you can probably run a single client in FullHD at near-max detail at close to or over 60 FPS, or two clients at a playable 30+ FPS most of the time, if the card worked properly.

Within your selected ~100 GBP budget for the video card, your most reasonable ATI//AMD selection would be either a 1GB Radeon HD 7750 (stock TDP 55W or 75W depending on exact model) or 7770 (stock TDP 80W), which should sound awfully familiar, and also guaranteed to work with the PSU you already have (unless the PSU you have is actually the problem - not very likely but possible, depending on what extra info you give us maybe we can tell.)
That should be up to almost 3 times faster compared to your old card, depending on what you had, what you'll get, and on whether any is/was factory-overclocked or not. Call it, say, up to ~200 FPS for the 7770 vs the ~70 FPS of the assumed 5770 you might have had.
On the NVIDIA side, a GTX 650 also fits that budget (including some 2GB RAM versions), and call that one ~180 FPS for comparison's sake.

...

Personally, I would say screw upgrading the CPU or RAM, and just get a significantly more expensive video card instead (like, say, a 3GB VRAM factory-overclocked GTX 660 Ti, for instance, and call that ~460+ FPS for comparison's sake):
246 GBP -> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/3gb-evga-gtx-660-ti-superclockedplus-28nm-pcie-30-6008mhz-gddr5-gpu-980mhz-boost-1059mhz-cores-1344-
Of course, that one might be a bit overkill though, and you MIGHT also want a new PSU to go with it, since it can draw up to 190W or thereabouts (compared to a stock version TDP of 150W) - theoretically a 500W PSU should more than suffice though (total system power draw should only be somewhere around 360W at peak), but some cheap PSUs that claim they are 500W PSUs can barely safely provide that much when they're brand new, let alone after years of use... so I guess it also really depends on what PSU you have.

Another good buy from my standpoint would be a SSD.
I'm not necessarily talking about the raw transfer speed - while that's a bonus indeed over spinning platter drives, the main draw of the SSD is that it doesn't badly choke when you're trying to do a lot of seemingly simultaneous operations like all spinning platter HDDs do.
And since the OS is frequently doing a lot of smaller file access in the background whenever you tell it to do almost anything, a SSD as an OS drive is almost a must in this day and age.
Personally, I'd go for something like this:
135 GBP -> 180GB Intel 330 series SSD
( found on http://www.scan.co.uk/products/180gb-intel-330-25-ssd-sata-iii-6gb-s-sandforce-2281-25nm-mlc-read-500mb-s-write-450mb-s-52k-iops-ma )
You can go cheaper with a 120 GB one, or even just a 60 GB one, but not installing your games and apps on it (while also leaving the swap file there too) would be a shame (so you kind of need the space), and you want to also leave some decent amount of space free on it so it can remain nearly as fast as it is at the start and allow it to do some proper wear leveling (especially important if you leave the swap file there).

Of course, if you go with that SSD, you'd need to downsize the video card a bit.
I would say that in that case, you might probably want either a 2GB GTX 660 (not a "Ti" version) or a 2GB Radeon HD 7870 (both of which should most likely give you 400+ FPS).
You should be able to find some for 160-170 GBP, which alongside the SSD from above would just about be at the upper limit of your posted budget.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#3 - 2013-02-26 07:59:28 UTC
You can also just get a ~100 GBP 1GB 7770 and nothing else for now, and see how that works for you.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-02-26 14:33:39 UTC
I am voting for power supply going bad.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#5 - 2013-02-26 14:56:00 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
I am voting for power supply going bad.

Power supplies have been the bane of my existance. I'm on my third replacement for blown PS on my game box... Of course, that box has also seen the end of it's upgrade life. I will be replacing it entire, next time it malfs.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-02-27 00:02:51 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#7 - 2013-02-27 04:25:28 UTC
my computer was on the fritz a while back. programs would crash (mostly firefox and eve) and often saw the blue screen of death with seemingly random error codes. replaced the ram and things got better (better quality and more).

otherwise Akita T has probably said everything worth saying.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#8 - 2013-02-27 07:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
With as little info as we have, it could be anything, including something as trivial as a slightly iffy OS install or corrupt drivers.

I personally live in a pretty poor quality electricity area, and still the PSUs I had seldom created any problems.
In over 20 years of PC ownership, only one machine MIGHT have had problems with the PSU, but the entire PC was so old that I got a brand new one ether way. And we're not talking brand name PSUs, I only ever purchased one "decent" PSU, and that was 2.5 years ago, for this machine I am using now. The rest were the puny type that come pre-installed in affordable cases.
So I guess it's mainly a matter of chance.

I guess we need to wait for the OP to show up again and give us a lot more details than he already had about how his machine doesn't work the way he thinks it should.
Else we might as well end up saying "get a complete new machine" :P
Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
#9 - 2013-02-27 07:41:59 UTC
Seems the only thing that hasn't been said is....

Clean all the fans, heat sinks, yadda yadda.

But, my money is on the P/S, unless it's the GPU.

Surrender is still your slightly less painful option.

Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#10 - 2013-02-27 18:04:24 UTC
Only posting here for the nostalgia your Thread title and what it implied brought in me ... Cry

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#11 - 2013-02-27 18:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirjava
Akita T wrote:


I guess we need to wait for the OP to show up again and give us a lot more details than he already had about how his machine doesn't work the way he thinks it should.
Else we might as well end up saying "get a complete new machine" :P


Sorry for the late reply, took a while to find out what kind of Motherboard it was (opening it up and finding the codes). Its a Gigabyte GA-MA790GPT-UD3H, the RAM is 4x2GB of DDR3 Corsair XMS3 at 1600MHz.

I'm currently sorting out my files for a full reinstall for a clean-up (reformat system drive). The machine freezes up for around 10 seconds on occasion while switching tabs in Chrome, and more seriously when either in a game or watching an HD, occasionally both (casual TF2 with something on in the background). These events requite the power to be reset, and I have not gotten a single BSOD because of this.

Additionaly... do I want to install Windows 8?... Oops

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BobFenner
Black Hole Runners
#12 - 2013-02-27 20:47:47 UTC
Windows 8?

Are you trolling?Blink
My missus thinks of EvE as 'the other woman'. :)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#13 - 2013-02-27 20:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
Kirjava wrote:

Additionaly... do I want to install Windows 8?... Oops

Flee! Quick, before it eats the children! Shocked

I'm specifically waiting on OS upgrades for the next stable OS. Microsoft seems to be in the habit of producing two OS versions that are pants, then one that's pretty solid. Windows 10, I think should be the next stable OS from them... Lol

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc

Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-02-27 23:01:40 UTC
The head of Windows 8 development chose the noose.

Your decision though.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#15 - 2013-02-28 00:38:46 UTC
Well I got offered a copy as part of a deal for £25, I bought it and sat on the licence till it becomes ready. As I'm already doing the reinstallation...

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-02-28 01:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
before critiquing other people's hardware and software choices, how about disclosing what you're running. all of you.

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/CbYr win8 64 pro

the reason 7 has the longevity it does, is because parts of 8 are backported into it. it's really, really ignorant to slam 8.

windows 7 can't even manage my 4x2 core CPU
Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
#17 - 2013-02-28 04:03:07 UTC
I've been told by one of our company's IT guys to stay as far away as possible from Win8.

Of course, this comes from the some people that made a few images of Win XP and Win 7 that could not see more then one core on a multi-core CPU. Shocked

Surrender is still your slightly less painful option.

Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
#18 - 2013-02-28 04:09:15 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
before critiquing other people's hardware and software choices, how about disclosing what you're running. all of you.

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/CbYr win8 64 pro

the reason 7 has the longevity it does, is because parts of 8 are backported into it. it's really, really ignorant to slam 8.

windows 7 can't even manage my 4x2 core CPU


If that is true about Win 7, then not only would I need to install Win 8 to use that CPU in my computer, but I would have to get a new motherboard, as mine "only" supports 6 core CPUs. Of course, if I were to upgrade the motherboard, I would need a new GPU, I "only" have a GTX 480, new harddrives, yadda yadda.

There is no way I'm getting the wife to approve that budget proposal considering this computer is barely 18 months old.

Surrender is still your slightly less painful option.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#19 - 2013-02-28 04:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Kirjava wrote:
took a while to find out what kind of Motherboard it was (opening it up and finding the codes)

For future reference, it's quicker/simpler/easier to just load up "CPUID CPU-Z" and go to the "Mainboard" tab.

Quote:

Yup, it's an AM3 mobo, not an AM3+ one.
Technically, at least some AM3+ CPUs might sort of work in it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socket_AM3#Socket_AM3.2B
Personally, I would not recommend that.

Latest BIOS upgrade also recommended in that case, newest one is a beta from mid-2010 : http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3143#bios
In fact, you might want to do the BIOS upgrade anyway.
Maybe not quite to the beta one, but the last seemingly stable one.
But only after you run most of the tests below first (and redo them after).


Quote:
I'm currently sorting out my files for a full reinstall for a clean-up (reformat system drive). The machine freezes up for around 10 seconds on occasion while switching tabs in Chrome, and more seriously when either in a game or watching an HD, occasionally both (casual TF2 with something on in the background). These events requite the power to be reset, and I have not gotten a single BSOD because of this.
Additionaly... do I want to install Windows 8?...

Not a lot of extra info there, but my updated personal guess list for "single faulty component" would go now :
- faulty RAM most likely
- corrupt OS pretty close in chance
- worn-out capacitors on EITHER the motherboard or the PSU (power demand spikes in excess of what it can safely provide causing odd behaviour)
- last and very unlikely a faulty GPU (there would be almost no good reason for the browser to behave erratically)

Of course, there might be more than one failure point, in which case, stuff gets complicated.

First off, you should check the motherboard capacitors visually.
If one of those is a problem, they have a pretty good chance of sticking out like a sore thumb, and you'll know you need a new motherboard.
Normally, they should be clean (as in, no goo-like substance on them ; dust is normal though), roughly cylindrical (no significantly widened areas, no noticeable bumps) and look sealed (no obvious openings nor cracks, especially near the top).
They could still look good but be weakened, so you never know for sure, you need to rule out everything else first.


You should download some app to test your hardware, for instance SiSoft Sandra ( http://download.cnet.com/SiSoftware-Sandra/3000-2086_4-10556571.html ).
Anything else similar works fine too.


Just in case, at this point, it would be a good idea to remove the GPU from your machine temporarily.
The motherboard has onboard graphics, use that while running the rest of the tests.One would assume that since it was probably never used, it has a high chance of still functioning properly.
In fact, you might want to try fiddling around with the PC for a while (heavy browser usage) with the GPU removed, see if it still behaves oddly (if it doesn't, the chance of GPU problems just went up massively, and chance of problem with the rest went down radically).
You can keep reinserting and removing the GPU for all testing steps below if you want to be completely thorough.

Start off with a battery of memory tests, see if or when it goes bonkers.
If nothing seems wrong at any step, skip to the next paragraph.
If something (hopefully) does go bonkers at this step, underclock the RAM just in case first, then redo the tests.
If it still goes bonkers, remove one RAM chip and redo the tests with a single chip.
Do all tests with both regular frequency RAM first, and then underclocked RAM.
If it still goes bonkers, remove the other chip and put the first one back in, then redo the tests.
If it still goes bonkers, you might want to either buy completely new RAM first (or at least temporarily borrow some "guaranteed good" RAM from somewhere else to do some more tests), or still try the next paragraph before that anyway, just in case (you might need to redo the step up to full OS reinstall after getting new RAM to avoid getting unnecessary components).

It would be nice if at this point you could borrow a different PSU temporarily, preferably one with a higher rated power.
If you can't, I would wait until the end before resorting to buying a new PSU.

You don't necessarily need to do a complete clean reinstall to fix OS issues, most of the time they can be solved with less hassle.
There's a tool built into (AFAIK) all Windows OSes since at least XP, probably since earlier, called "System File Checker" ( sfc.exe )
You will require a Windows install DVD for that, so it can compare existing system files with the reference files from the original kit, and you can replace the corrupt ones with the "good" ones from the DVD.
You might require to reinstall some updates and/or drivers and/or even some apps afterwards, but it should still be a lot more convenient than a clean reinstall.

If stuff is still screwy, do a wipe and clean reinstall.
I would stick with whatever OS you have right now until you're sure you got rid of whatever issues you might have had, and only then consider a different OS version.

By now you should have a fairly good idea what's most likely broken.
Please let us know too, our of curiosity.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2013-02-28 05:30:10 UTC
silicon degrades in processors after a few years, and thermal paste dries out... (imo, thermal paste is annual maintenance, along with blowing dust out of the internals every few months)...

yep. I would say it's -age-
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