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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Who is Right?
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Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#21 - 2013-02-26 21:28:34 UTC
Might makes right.

Whether this is a good thing or not depends on which side of the gun/missile/doomsday weapon you are on.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-02-26 21:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Might only makes right in the very short term. The great capsuleer alliances have taught us this - they rise on the wings of immeasurable power, flare as bright as supernovae and then are swept away like the ashes of those that they replaced.

Some of the hugest coalitions ever, ones that wielded power that compares to the Empires themselves, are now spoken of only in jests. So too will the current coalitions pass.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#23 - 2013-02-26 21:54:19 UTC
That doesn't imply that might does not make right, however. It just implies that sometimes might is fleeting, and that empires are only as stable as those that constitute them.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2013-02-26 23:05:50 UTC
Well, there's not much point in being 'right' for all of a standard year before not only who won the conflict but the people involved in fighting it are forgotten, is there?

I realise this brings us back to that tired saying "It doesn't matter who was right, only who is left." again, but there is the ring of truth to it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-02-27 00:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant and any discussion of such cannot become a part of the peacemaking process if it is to be successful. To do so would only reignite hostilities.

Both the Federation and the State have committed terrible acts upon another for which their can be no restitution. Therefore, the best course of action is for both parties to reconcile; lasting, meaningful peace can only be achieved through diplomatic discussion. To think this would happen is, however, naive. For now, we must be content with the stalemate between the two empires until a more realistic solution can be found.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-02-27 04:49:46 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant and any discussion of such cannot become a part of the peacemaking process if it is to be successful. To do so would only reignite hostilities.

Both the Federation and the State have committed terrible acts upon another for which their can be no restitution. Therefore, the best course of action is for both parties to reconcile; lasting, meaningful peace can only be achieved through diplomatic discussion. To think this would happen is, however, naive. For now, we must be content with the stalemate between the two empires until a more realistic solution can be found.


There is nothing odious in what you've said. I believe that a lasting resolution to the matter of Home can only happen through diplomatic negotiation - so what is needed to bring the Federation to the table? What would they want in the stead of their dubious claim on our homeworld based on their unquestioned sovreignty of the solar system in which it is located?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-02-27 05:14:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant and any discussion of such cannot become a part of the peacemaking process if it is to be successful. To do so would only reignite hostilities.

Both the Federation and the State have committed terrible acts upon another for which their can be no restitution. Therefore, the best course of action is for both parties to reconcile; lasting, meaningful peace can only be achieved through diplomatic discussion. To think this would happen is, however, naive. For now, we must be content with the stalemate between the two empires until a more realistic solution can be found.


There is nothing odious in what you've said. I believe that a lasting resolution to the matter of Home can only happen through diplomatic negotiation - so what is needed to bring the Federation to the table? What would they want in the stead of their dubious claim on our homeworld based on their unquestioned sovreignty of the solar system in which it is located?


That is the heart of this matter. It is very clear what the Caldari desire, but what the Federation wants out of this is less obvious. It could be the Gallentean sense of stubborn pride that makes us so, well, stubborn. Also, there are other hidden factors. The unfortunate caveat to democracy is the confusion and chaos that comes with it. There are far too many opinions within the senate and administration on this issue for there to be any immediate, meaningful action to end the conflict.

However, I do think that if Tibus Heth were to step down and be replaced with a more moderate successor, the Gallente would be much more comfortable with the prospect of handing back Caldari Prime. He is the "latchkey" of this whole ordeal.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2013-02-27 05:58:55 UTC
So in order to bring the Federation to the negotiating table all we have to do is impeach our leader and take away the only thing stopping you from re-invading the planet again?

That seems fair. /sarcasm

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-02-27 06:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So in order to bring the Federation to the negotiating table all we have to do is impeach our leader and take away the only thing stopping you from re-invading the planet again?

That seems fair. /sarcasm


Tibus Heth is old, paranoid and wields near-absolute power in the State; he's a danger not only to the Federation, but to the Caldari as well. You may remember that he sanctioned the bombardment of his own people not too long ago?

I am by no means suggesting that the Caldari fall in line with Gallente ideals and practices, but there is a reason why we change our leaders often. And again, I said replace. The Caldari should maintain their defense of Caldari Prime, but a more moderate leader (not Heth) would be conducive to productive talks with the Federation.

Also, I want to clarify something. Heth and Blaque like to throw the word "racist" at each other. Their personal conflict in many ways reflects the conflict between the two empires: both are afraid one will attack the other. Once that fear is allayed, we can all move forward.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#30 - 2013-02-27 06:55:47 UTC
I remember when I used to think posting in these threads would make any difference...

... oh those were the dumb old days. Fondly missed, they are.

Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2013-02-27 07:05:47 UTC
Oniseki-haani, it is always frightening when an avowed diplomat judges dialog to be worthless.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#32 - 2013-02-27 13:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
Blaque's speech is an attempt at escalation. The situation has been stable for almost half a decade by now. I am sure that the only threat to the federation's constitution from the Strikeforce in orbit around Home comes from people like Blaque himself.

We came for Home, not for vengeance. Your federation's thirst for it will only spawn more, as we'll be forced to respond in kind. And we will.
We do not lack the determination to do what needs to be done.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-02-27 14:39:00 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Blaque's speech is an attempt at escalation. The situation has been stable for almost half a century by now. I am sure that the only threat to the federation's constitution from the Strikeforce in orbit around Home comes from people like Blaque himself.

We came for Home, not for vengeance. Your federation's thirst for it will only spawn more, as we'll be forced to respond in kind. And we will.
We do not lack the determination to do what needs to be done.


Stable for almost half a century? Well, I would have thought that recent events demonstrate just how hilariously wrong that statement is.

The strikeforce in orbit around the Caldari homeworld exists nor for one reason, but two. Firstly to defend the planet against any Federal counter attack, the second is to hold a gun to the heads of all Federal citizens on the planet. Until they are allowed to leave freely, then there can be no peace.

Once these hostages are freed, then terms for the official transfer of Caldari Prime to the State can be negotiated.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#34 - 2013-02-27 15:05:13 UTC
Half a decade, or in other words, since the one-day-war. Apologies for fumbled words.

Of course it is an implied threat. You can bet that without it there would've been a military intervention long ago.
Consider it an insurance policy.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-02-27 15:08:00 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Half a decade, or in other words, since the one-day-war. Apologies for fumbled words.

Of course it is an implied threat. You can bet that without it there would've been a military intervention long ago.
Consider it an insurance policy.


Granted. However, this 'insurance policy' is one of the many barriers standing between us and peace.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-02-27 15:11:37 UTC
Clearly the only solution is to migrate Home into State space via a giant wormhole array.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#37 - 2013-02-27 15:39:51 UTC
Astera Zandraki wrote:

Granted. However, this 'insurance policy' is one of the many barriers standing between us and peace.


Agreed. I'd like to point out that if there were genocidal tendencies the situation would've been exploited for these actions right in the beginning. There was - and is - the possibility to bombard gallentean districts and there at least was the possibility to visit gallente prime before a rapid response could've been mustered.

That would have been costly, without a doubt, but seeing as the action was supposedly mandated by a raving lunatic this wouldn't have been an issue, no?
In the end the offer of a ceasefire once Home was reclaimed was a proof of the intentions. I find it endearing that pilots like Inhonores continue talking about 'annexing Placid' when all that is done there is happening according to the CEMWPA and can be summarized as 'governing and using conquered territories and assets'.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-02-27 15:41:35 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Clearly the only solution is to migrate Home into State space via a giant wormhole array.


It would be easier! But, seriously, there can be co-existence in the system, just a few concessions on both sides and we can have peace, even cooperation.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#39 - 2013-02-27 17:22:05 UTC
After listening to the inflamed rhetoric coming from both sides (although the Caldari seem to be winning in this round of militant banter) I'm convinced that there's no peaceful solution to this issue short of the universe moving Caldari Prime out of the Luminaire system.

Hopefully this will be an object to future generations after the two former partners manage to destroy each other.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-02-27 17:30:31 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
After listening to the inflamed rhetoric coming from both sides (although the Caldari seem to be winning in this round of militant banter) I'm convinced that there's no peaceful solution to this issue short of the universe moving Caldari Prime out of the Luminaire system.

Hopefully this will be an object to future generations after the two former partners manage to destroy each other.


Nothing is gained by surrendering hope.

~Malcolm Khross
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