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Trebor Daehdoow for CSM8 - The Proven Performer - http://bit.ly/vote-trebor

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-02-26 20:40:10 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I asked for vice-chair to make sure Two step would get Secretary


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#102 - 2013-02-26 21:07:48 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I asked for vice-chair to make sure Two step would get Secretary


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Seconding this.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-02-26 21:09:53 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I asked for vice-chair to make sure Two step would get Secretary


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Seconding this.


Yep.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Frying Doom
#104 - 2013-02-26 21:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Justify your electing of Seleene to Chairman. Given all the Yay CCP's we have heard in the last 12 months as well as the behind the scene talks that have handed the majority of CSM8 to Null sec blocks via the new voting system (Ok they may not get more than 7 but if they don't it means they are not trying and that says something in its self)

So simple question can you justify that vote?

I actually argued to CCP Xhagen that Two step should succeed to the chair because with Mittens resignation, he was the member elected with the highest number of votes at the time CSM8 was seated. I simply didn't want to have to decide between two gentlemen whom I greatly respect, each of whom had significant points in their favor.

But when I did have to vote, it was one of those 51/49 decisions. The factors that tipped it in Seleene's favor was that he had a very good relationship with certain people at CCP, and that batphone was going to be important. Also, Two step had proven he was a good writer and editor, so I felt he was better suited to the Secretary position (I asked for vice-chair to make sure Two step would get Secretary). Finally, I expected that he would run again, and would be the front-runner for CSM8 chair (which I expected would be determined by election).

I disagree with your assessment that CSM8 has been handed to Null on several levels.

First, they will get representation proportional to their share of the electorate; under the old system, they could choose to get more than that fair share by leveraging their information advantage (unfair) or take less than their fair share (lazy bastards) by focusing their vote on just a few candidates.

Second, CSM is not a legislature. 3 people saying the same thing are not more powerful than 1 person saying something different; what counts is the strength of the arguments, and in particular, CSM is most effective when it comes to a consensus ("we disagree about a lot of things, but this we agree upon"). So no group can "dominate" unless the other delegates allow it.

One hope I have for the new system is that it will encourage qualified people to run who would not otherwise do so, and give them a chance to get elected. What the CSM needs more than anything else is a higher percentage of people willing to put in serious effort. If "Nullsec" elects 8 people who are going to bust ass rather than sit on their asses, that's fine by me -- because the rest of the community will elect people like Ripard Teg, Malcanis, Marc Scaurus and so on. Which means we'd have at least 11 worker-bees, as compared to CSM7 where we had about 6.

If the major Null sec alliances manage 8 people they are the majority. So then it comes down to this. Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard? and yes they will get representation proportional to their share of voters (not the electorate) and so instead of just being The Mittani, using CSM 7s election as an example, just on those votes it would have been The Mittani and 2 others on the CSM.

As to your vote, well that will probably forever stand as the biggest black mark against you.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-02-26 21:25:30 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
But the problem is one of resources. CCP simply doesn't have the resources to do all these things quickly. Their new development system is a good start, but it will take years to get through the to-do list at current levels of staffing.


They had the resources, but they decided to waste them on a room & MT for 18 months instead. CCP's main recurring problem is that they aren't really involved in the varying aspects of the game. That becomes even more so apparent when they implement a change that obviously needs more work & blatantly ignoring the warnings provided by the players actually testing the content (FW exploit), or coming up with a grand scheme to *fix* something & just making it worse (Technetium buff, sov changes - We're making it better for small alliances (HA, just kidding!)).

As someone that has served on the last 3 CSM's do you feel that CCP will turn this around any time soon, or are we likely to continue receiving half completed content, or no content at all when it's deemed too difficult?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Frying Doom
#106 - 2013-02-26 21:36:49 UTC
A question as you are a current member of CSM 7

Do you think answer like this "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked."
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2674618#post2674618

Is good enough or do you believe CCP needs to work on their Customer service?

If you don't believe it is good enough, was this brought up with CCP as CSM 7s scope was
"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the “greatest good for the greater player base”. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP. "?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ginger Barbarella
#107 - 2013-02-27 00:07:45 UTC
From a fellow old fart (46 here), you have my six (6) votes for the hard work you've put in and results you've helped achieve so far (unlike a few others).

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#108 - 2013-02-27 01:49:35 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
A question as you are a current member of CSM 7

Do you think answer like this "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked."
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2674618#post2674618

Is good enough or do you believe CCP needs to work on their Customer service?


Ah, you should have posted in the thread, it could have been fun. The thread was pretty much dead or over with IMO. But it did seem to be a bit snub like really. Could have given it a few more moments to live.

Also how do we not know if Two Step used mind waves, to force Trebor to pick vice chairman, so he could get secretary. Perhaps Two Step took editor classes the previous year, so the position would be his. But still worried and wanted to seal the deal.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-02-27 04:19:33 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

If the major Null sec alliances manage 8 people they are the majority. So then it comes down to this. Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard? and yes they will get representation proportional to their share of voters (not the electorate) and so instead of just being The Mittani, using CSM 7s election as an example, just on those votes it would have been The Mittani and 2 others on the CSM.

As to your vote, well that will probably forever stand as the biggest black mark against you.


It's not "The CSM" that's selecting those five that go, it's "the CSM and CCP", and you're hilariously naive if you think that CCP a) won't have a clue who the hard workers are or aren't and b) won't have or won't use veto power if the CSM were to try to send some non-contributor.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Frying Doom
#110 - 2013-02-27 04:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
mynnna wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

If the major Null sec alliances manage 8 people they are the majority. So then it comes down to this. Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard? and yes they will get representation proportional to their share of voters (not the electorate) and so instead of just being The Mittani, using CSM 7s election as an example, just on those votes it would have been The Mittani and 2 others on the CSM.

As to your vote, well that will probably forever stand as the biggest black mark against you.


It's not "The CSM" that's selecting those five that go, it's "the CSM and CCP", and you're hilariously naive if you think that CCP a) won't have a clue who the hard workers are or aren't and b) won't have or won't use veto power if the CSM were to try to send some non-contributor.

Oh look exactly my point earlier. What is stopping CCP from having you all sign NDAs and then just choosing 5 yes men telling us they are the hardest working, so that way in they do another Incarna they can just point and say "Sorry but we ran this past the CSM at the summit and they loved it"

Kind of my point why the CSM can not be called the voice of the players as most of it can be easily hidden. or by the opposite token lets say 8 members of the CSM are from Goons and TEST and they far out strip everyone else in the area of hard working, can CCP take them as it would be a complete disaster for the CSM. Lets face it enough people think CCP let the goons, TEST get away with murder as it is. That would really sink the CSM as a Null Sec Lobby Group.

And that is the biggest problem with CCP having anything to do with selecting who goes to iceland, it has nothing to do with the will of the voters and will be looked at as either asking for yes men, bowing to the Goons or having to include others against its will to look good. These may not be the reasons but they will be how they appear. Unfortunately the CSM is now nothing more than a tool for CCP and you are naive if you believe other wise.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#111 - 2013-02-27 04:32:36 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

If the major Null sec alliances manage 8 people they are the majority. So then it comes down to this. Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard? and yes they will get representation proportional to their share of voters (not the electorate) and so instead of just being The Mittani, using CSM 7s election as an example, just on those votes it would have been The Mittani and 2 others on the CSM.

As to your vote, well that will probably forever stand as the biggest black mark against you.


It's not "The CSM" that's selecting those five that go, it's "the CSM and CCP", and you're hilariously naive if you think that CCP a) won't have a clue who the hard workers are or aren't and b) won't have or won't use veto power if the CSM were to try to send some non-contributor.


Well I thought it was a debate with workers and the actual content CCP wants to produce in the expansion, who will be chosen.

We were lucky to have Hans though. A content person who would also win the worker slot as well. Who knows how long that will continue though.

Well myanna, Frying Doom, has a pretty pessimistic view of CCP, since they fail to impress him with their customer service. If CCP was good enough to improve customer service, Frying Doom might respect them enough for him to trust their judgements and know they wouldn't be fooled by the meta game.

Its actaully kind of funny, how you goons, like to try to out meta or out trick CCP, but then tell Frying Doom, they are to be trusted or are competent.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#112 - 2013-02-27 04:37:55 UTC
rodyas wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

If the major Null sec alliances manage 8 people they are the majority. So then it comes down to this. Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard? and yes they will get representation proportional to their share of voters (not the electorate) and so instead of just being The Mittani, using CSM 7s election as an example, just on those votes it would have been The Mittani and 2 others on the CSM.

As to your vote, well that will probably forever stand as the biggest black mark against you.


It's not "The CSM" that's selecting those five that go, it's "the CSM and CCP", and you're hilariously naive if you think that CCP a) won't have a clue who the hard workers are or aren't and b) won't have or won't use veto power if the CSM were to try to send some non-contributor.


Well I thought it was a debate with workers and the actual content CCP wants to produce in the expansion, who will be chosen.

We were lucky to have Hans though. A content person who would also win the worker slot as well. Who knows how long that will continue though.

Well myanna, Frying Doom, has a pretty pessimistic view of CCP, since they fail to impress him with their customer service. If CCP was good enough to improve customer service, Frying Doom might respect them enough for him to trust their judgements and know they wouldn't be fooled by the meta game.

Its actaully kind of funny, how you goons, like to try to out meta or out trick CCP, but then tell Frying Doom, they are to be trusted or are competent.

I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#113 - 2013-02-27 05:04:11 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.


Well, they are a company, so you shouldn't expect any more really. But it is kind of sad too though.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#114 - 2013-02-27 05:09:13 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.


Well, they are a company, so you shouldn't expect any more really. But it is kind of sad too though.

I would love to do their employee evaluations.
"Attendance, good"
"Attitude: Great"
'Team work: could use some improvement"
"Customer Complaints / Interactions: You're Fired"Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#115 - 2013-02-27 05:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Frying Doom wrote:

"Customer Complaints / Interactions: You're Fired"Lol


Well I would mostly just go with their official interactions and such. Their informal or "normal" interactions are fun and usually great.

Official ones, though usually follow the template of most companies, and since they are one, or its hard to improve that template, I don't really expect much or so.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Endeavour Starfleet
#116 - 2013-02-27 07:08:53 UTC
Hello there!

I would like to name several situations that I feel are detrimental to the game. Give a solution and ask you for your stance on both. I do need answers to all the situations for my vote(s)

POS those three letters bring nightmares to just about anyone having the misfortune of having to operate one. The solution in the long term is obviously modular POS. Yet CCP seems to be backpedaling on implementing this despite the MANY benefits. What is your stance on the possibility of a near term bandage of a form of player POS that is only designed to be the equilivant of a Secure Container for ships until modular POS is ready?

Overpowered passive cloaking. It is now to the point where people are now beyond AFK cloaking but running Twitch.tv streams of enemy stations and systems! Would you support balancing cloaking to punish those who go AFK (Eventually able to be scanned down for decloak) while maintaining the benefits to people actively cloaking (Remaining at their keyboard)

Lack of Ring Mining. Again with the CCP backpedaling despite the many benefits for nullsec and other areas for the game. What is your stand on the crap that is moon mining?

The silly push by some in the community to end or delay "Local" or any effective means for those in a nullsec system to determine if a hostile or unknown is in system in them. This obviously needs no solution but I want your thoughts.

The horrible state of missions in hisec. The solution in my opinion is a complete rewrite to allow for a more incursion like approach that rewards those who want to train up logistic frigs and cruisers or be a specific role in a fleet. Also providing a way for newer players to experience group play in EVE.

Incursion suckage. With the nerfs to Incursions fleets have slowed to a trickle and it was sad to see CCP willing to spend more development time nerfing entire expansions instead of doing what was right being making other aspects of EVE better. Modular POS and Ring mining need dev time sooner so I will admit this ought to be looked at later however I wanted to get your views on them and have this to be some context to the next aspect of Logi.

Logi suckage. Logis do not have the tools to do their job. They need to be able to tell who is locked and taking damage and in large fleets the watchlist can't handle that leading to dependence on broadcasts that most of EVE seems to not know or refuse to use right. Look at any average HQ incursion fleet where people don't broadcast right stressing out logi or in fleet fights where following FCs orders makes it harder to broadcast properly. A solution is a logi only screen that is completely configurable to show who is taking the most DPS and who has the most locks in fleet.

Logi Suckage #2 Reps don't get you on mails? Wut? Solution obviously is to have repping those in fleet land you on killmails generated from fleet.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-02-27 10:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow
Snow Axe wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Your eloquence is, as always, an inspiration to us all.

Frying Doom wrote:
Who do CCP believe for the Iceland trips, the now majority of the CSM who is telling everyone how hard they are working and telling people that everyone else is crap or the lone guy saying he is working hard?

CCP Xhagen will believe the evidence of his own senses. He knows who is contributing and who is lurking, and I have no doubt he will apply a cluebat if people try political games. But, again, CSM is not a legislature, and the political games you fear have not happened in the past.

In my judgment, the risk of that kind of problem is far outweighed by the benefits of potential CSM candidates knowing that if they work hard, there will be some tangible reward -- and vice-versa.

As for my vote for Seleene vs. Two step for chair, I made my decision based on what I thought was best for the CSM as an institution. Would you have preferred that I take political considerations into account?

Frying Doom wrote:
Oh look exactly my point earlier. What is stopping CCP from having you all sign NDAs and then just choosing 5 yes men telling us they are the hardest working, so that way in they do another Incarna they can just point and say "Sorry but we ran this past the CSM at the summit and they loved it"

I believe you are making several mis-assumptions here. First, if CCP were to try something like that, there is nothing in the NDA that would prevent CSM members from speaking out. Second, nothing will prevent CSMs from attending summit sessions remotely via Lync; members doing so, in particular Hans and Alekseyev, made significant contributions in that way. And third, one of the significant values of CSM to CCP is that it isn't full of yes-men.

If, as you appear to believe, CSM is a pointless PR exercise, then I don't believe any set of rules about how it works could satisfy you. But you may be comforted by the following notion -- if CCP does attempt to surround themselves with yes-men under the 2+5 system, then it would be a point in favor of your hypothesis.

Frying Doom wrote:
I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.

While I don't agree with you in this instance, I agree that there are some areas of CCP customer service that could be significantly improved.

Frying Doom wrote:
Do you think answer like this "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked."
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2674618#post2674618

It has been my experience with CCP Xhagen that he is always amenable to honest argument (and willing to amend any position given sufficient evidence), but also that since he has put a considerable amount of time and effort into formulating his positions, it requires a significant weight of evidence in order to tip the scales the other way. This is no doubt a result of his professional training as a philosopher. While this can be frustrating when he holds an opinion you do not share, it should give you some comfort with regards his ability to cut through any political bullsh*t that might arise regarding trips to Iceland.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#118 - 2013-02-27 11:10:43 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.


Well, they are a company, so you shouldn't expect any more really. But it is kind of sad too though.

I would love to do their employee evaluations.
"Attendance, good"
"Attitude: Great"
'Team work: could use some improvement"
"Customer Complaints / Interactions: You're Fired"Lol


Personally, I've generally found CCP's blunt communication style to make a refreshing change from the bland, anodyne, responsibility-evading, passive-voiced, corporate-approved bullshit we see from most companies.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#119 - 2013-02-27 11:17:27 UTC
Thank you for your answers

While I do not currently believe the CSM is just a PR exercise, I believe that the tools for it to become one are currently being put in place.

But the other reason I mentioned customer service was that we were once again told that before any changes were made to the CSM their would be a lengthy public discussion. Again this did not happen, the CSM was spoken too and that being where some of these awful ideas have come from but I honestly don't remember most of this being spoken of let alone having any backing by the community as a whole.

Actually I remember me calling Seleene's ideas a blasphemy and getting agreement from the other side of the fence and that was about it. So we have now in place that a few CSM members like and the majority of the community hate.
My biggest dislike is that this new voting system is less likely for people to vote so any awareness campaign they run now has a large anchor.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#120 - 2013-02-27 11:27:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I think "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." really sums up CCPs customer service skills.


Well, they are a company, so you shouldn't expect any more really. But it is kind of sad too though.

I would love to do their employee evaluations.
"Attendance, good"
"Attitude: Great"
'Team work: could use some improvement"
"Customer Complaints / Interactions: You're Fired"Lol


Personally, I've generally found CCP's blunt communication style to make a refreshing change from the bland, anodyne, responsibility-evading, passive-voiced, corporate-approved bullshit we see from most companies.

While I will agree some of there public relations can be fun but on the other side of that coin having petition handled in ways that could only be considered mocking, having quite often just out right rude or insulting statements or for that matter and one I have fired people over the old "Sorry that's not part of our job"

But the "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." was a really good example out of CCP we have had that they might be legally vulnerable if they try to conceal the people names and something happens. Yes correct they can be, in some jurisdictions. While releasing the payers names can only lead to serious criminal charges if something really bad happens in others.

So in the cases of actual player safety where we have already had death threats, stalking, people attempting to get CSM members fired ect... I just find "As CCP Xhagen has made the position clear; this thread is now locked." does not cut it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!