EVE General Discussion

I'm just going to try try to address the fears highseccers have when it comes to this change that results in these sorts of threads. Are these fears reasonable? No, these proposed changes aren't designed to break the game. Are they understandable, human, etc. with how polarized and aggressive highseccers and nullseccers are to each other? Yes, and nullseccers need to keep this in mind.



The reason we want high industry nerfed and null industry buffed is so that it's not cheaper to just import everything from highsec with jump freighters. Logically the solution to this is, as well as fixing the mineral supply and industrial slot issues with null, increasing manufacturing fees in highsec so that it is no longer cheaper for nullsec to import via jump freighter, IE to make the difference in manufacturing costs enough that the added cost of jump freighter importation from both fuel and the highsec markup in jita can no longer compete with this buffed industry*.

Now CCP would already be designing this system with jump freighter fuel in mind, so as long as the cost of null-produced goods + jump freighter fuel is greater than what it is in highsec, it would be unprofitable to export to highsec. Jump fuel costs are fairly substantial, tens of millions per jump, which leaves plenty of breathing room for an appropriate manufacturing fee. If this comes with a PoS revamp it's even easier, as both null and highsec will have the option of producing from PoS and the only current advantage null would have is the sov-based fuel discount. The sov discount may need to be increased on that even, who knows. It needs to be stressed that these changes do not need to be severe, just non-negligible. 18k isk for a hurricane versus 500k or something.

Also CCP has repeatedly nerfed null for chrissakes, if the changes do break high industry you can bet they'll iterate.

I see others are tackling mining so I'm not going to talk about competition between highsec and nullsec mining.


And if nullsec tries to take advantage of their discount by running freighter convoys...well....there will be hilarious results, that's for sure. And those who participate in them will need to be compensated for their time that could be spent ratting or mining, whether it be direct compensation or a PVP ship replacement program or whatever. It won't be "free".**


* Actually null's hub sale price market prices will probably be close to jita et al in an ideal system as there would be an added cost for null logistics (even if it's just moving minerals or too and from PoS in the same system), which is more dangerous than high and thus won't be as hilariously cheap as the deals you can get with public couriers in highsec.

** CCP might need to tie in mining back to system security in some way, or folks could set up a full mining and industry operation right on the border to highsec to keep their logistics costs as close to high's as possible while enjoying the price advantages. It may not be a problem though, as people will likely be very inclined to harass and deny sov to a bunch of miners easily accessible from the safety of highsec? Something to keep in mind, anyways.

… and nullsec POSes come under siege more often than hisec POSes. And shipping stuff around in nullsec is risky. And running a POS requires a fuel supply chain.

Probably not in the highsec part of those borders, as interesting as that would be. At least, not more than there already is. The thing is that jump fuel costs are a lot more than highsec freight costs, as just about everything in highsec can be afk autopiloted in NPC corps at very low cost. Once you get it into high you can get it anywhere and cheap, even if you outsource your hauling. Red Frog, for example, is only 7.5 million ISK for 13 stargates to have a full freighter hauled (570k per jump? Not sure what formula they use, cause they're not forthcoming with their rate :P). And they are actually comparatively expensive, charging a premium because they have enough volume to guarantee that you'll get your contract completed relatively quickly (usually in a day as opposed to 1-2 weeks).

As stated before, there could be a problem with people using sov adjacent to high to undercut highsec without having to deal with the full hassle of null logistics.

You know that if industralists use their social skills and actually make friends with people, they're more than welcome in not-highsec - and generally people will pitch in to help make their lives easier right?

I really don't think this "cultural bias" is a problem, though posts with misinformation like yours contribute to the false perception that it is.

non-supercap industrialists are seen as a liability in nullsec because the mechanics prevent effective industry from taking place, making them liabilities. All alliances who disagreed with this assessment and loaded up on industrialists... are dead. An advantage in industrialists in 0.0 is no advantage at all. That's not a 'cultural bias', that is cold truth proven in the darwinian ecosystem we call nullsec every day. Economic change precedes cultural changes, not the other way around.

Will make life worse for JF pilots and non-Supercap producers. That's all.

Supercap producers will simply do what they already do on occasion now: buy/build carriers/dreads, jump them to the manufacturing location and reprocess them for capital components.

How do you propose striking that balance without going too far? If you get it wrong you cripple hi-sec industry. How much is enough for null?

The problem is that highsec benefits like CONCORD-based security and unconquerable stations are impossible to quantify monetarily without extensive trial and error. Hence, putting in place tariffs and adjusting highsec industrial efficiency is problematic.

Industrial capacity of regions however is easily quantified (stations x average station slots + number of moons one can put a POS on) and much harder to get wrong, which is why I think that should be the target of rebalancing.

Because unlike the new miner, a new industrialist can't progress or play the industrial game at all without being able to compete somewhere. Simple as that. If someone likes the industrial side of the game, they should be able to have the option to do so with some margin of success as close to the beginning of their game play as possible. A beginning miner is still making isk. A beginning industrialist who can't compete is not.

The point was there's only so many times you can do a large increase before it starts getting into the ridiculous region, so you can't say it doesn't matter. Its as ridiculous as those ridiculous numbers I put out, there's a stopping point at some point and you're pretty much saying it doesn't exist. Not for any legitimate reason, but because it hurts your point. Anyways, you want the justification, it affects a hella lot more than industry, from mission running, to exploration, even making PvP harder to fund. Increases the barrier to PvPing for new players. Increases the barrier to them rising up in the ranks, I could go on and on but you'd just ignore it because you don't like it.

Also I never said don't fix it. Again, YOU'RE not asking for them to fix it. You're asking for null sec dominance. If you can't figure that out, you're really not nearly as well versed in economics as you seem to claim. You're not looking at all the factors, you're only looking at what suits you, otherwise you'd be looking at inflation, not just your definition that goes against EVERY OTHER MODERN DEFINITION OUT THERE. EVERY! SINGLE! ONE! Your ONE citation is a single out of context quotation that ignores what he was talking about in the first place. You'd be looking at the fact that your solution only would help a tiny portion of null sec while damaging everywhere else. This isn't a question, this is the cold hard fact, even by your economic profit definition, because all regions STILL wouldn't be equal. Or would you like them to adjust for EVERY single system in the game? You know.. the thousands of them out there, because by your method, that would be the only viable way to do it if you wanted things equal as you claim. An absurd amount of work that would take years, only to suddenly shift as trade hubs shift.

Your fix isn't just hard. Its a flat out impossible way to do what you claim to want to accomplish, or at the very least, not viable in the lifetime of the game.