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Tibus Heth denounces Blaque's rally speech
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#21 - 2013-02-26 23:43:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You took Home by force. You kept Home by force. You made us take it back by force and you ensure that the only way we can keep it, is by force. The Federation introduced military force into this dialog and they have kept it firmly there. Don't play games and suggest this is all about Caldari aggression. It isn't, we're simply speaking the language that YOU taught us.


E'nope. Wasn't there. You're also making a lot of presumptions about what I said.

At least attempt to see both sides of the question. I have.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#22 - 2013-02-27 00:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
My head hurts. ~rubs his temples~

The same old arguments, accusations, and recriminations.

Perhaps we don't deserve peace.

Perhaps there will be no peace, until one or the other in victory, or ruin stands.

If it is to be. then let it come.

Enough of this.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#23 - 2013-02-27 01:34:10 UTC
James is right.

All we're doing is rehashing the same old arguments and continuing the same old tug of war that has been going on for centuries. Perhaps its time for each of us to re-evaluate why we fight and what it is we are fighting for. There are however, some very real things that have to be squared away for peace to even be possible, and unfortunately for both of us, the state of Caldari Prime as a Caldari entity is one of them.

Without that the key to peace is lost, and we continue the endless waltz for eternity; or at least until our bones are nothing but a memory and our lives lost like a whisper in the wind.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-02-27 01:49:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Tibus Heth isn't helping his position very much either. Resorting to ad-hominim tells me that he can't think of a proper counter and just wants to boost morale on his side, which is what he is good at and is the entire reason why he is in power in the first place.

I advocate for peaceful relations between the State and the Federation, yet I feel that the State isn't as willing to bring about peace as the Federation is. It is not the Federation who took advantage of the temporary destruction of the CONCORD networks, it was the Caldari. The Federation doesn't have a Titan and it's battlefleet serving as a fail-deadly, ready to obliterate a homeworld if things go south, the Caldari do.

I sympathize with the Caldari over their issue. Caldari prime should be in the hands of the State, you just can't argue against that logic. I simply adore the Caldari people, their culture, and their society. However, I am rather distasteful of how their government is handling things, particularly Tibus Heth.

Once the Caldari stop aiming their weapons at us, then they will have a case. The more the Caldari forces build up in the system, the less it appears to me that all Tibus Heth want is his homeworld, he wants more, he wants revenge, he wants Gallente Prime.

Tibus Heth is a war-hungry leader. He will use any and every opportunity to justify an attack or gain further support for himself. He came into power through violence, and he will stay in power that way. There is no reason to build up alleged "defenses" when the Federation isn't interested in attacking anyway.

I'm sorry my Caldari brethren, but you are being lead by a madman. The sooner all of you oust him, the better off the State will be.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2013-02-27 03:49:31 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Tibus Heth isn't helping his position very much either. Resorting to ad-hominim tells me that he can't think of a proper counter and just wants to boost morale on his side, which is what he is good at and is the entire reason why he is in power in the first place.

I advocate for peaceful relations between the State and the Federation, yet I feel that the State isn't as willing to bring about peace as the Federation is. It is not the Federation who took advantage of the temporary destruction of the CONCORD networks, it was the Caldari. The Federation doesn't have a Titan and it's battlefleet serving as a fail-deadly, ready to obliterate a homeworld if things go south, the Caldari do.

I sympathize with the Caldari over their issue. Caldari prime should be in the hands of the State, you just can't argue against that logic. I simply adore the Caldari people, their culture, and their society. However, I am rather distasteful of how their government is handling things, particularly Tibus Heth.

Once the Caldari stop aiming their weapons at us, then they will have a case. The more the Caldari forces build up in the system, the less it appears to me that all Tibus Heth want is his homeworld, he wants more, he wants revenge, he wants Gallente Prime.

Tibus Heth is a war-hungry leader. He will use any and every opportunity to justify an attack or gain further support for himself. He came into power through violence, and he will stay in power that way. There is no reason to build up alleged "defenses" when the Federation isn't interested in attacking anyway.

I'm sorry my Caldari brethren, but you are being lead by a madman. The sooner all of you oust him, the better off the State will be.


I echo many of your sentiments, sir, but for one fact: we had no choice but to take up arms. Ours was the active goal - the reclamation of our homeworld. Were we to turn aside our Titan, we would lose that goal which you admit ought be ours. We are as bound as the Federation, and the Federation as guilty as we for this conflict.

We are equal in our desire for peace, it is only upon the terms of that peace where we differ. A hopeful thought.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-02-27 04:03:23 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

Isn't it a bit hypocrite to refuse by any means that your own home being ruled by a foreign power and asking to others to deal with the exact same thing ?


Except I have not done this, so don't infer that I have. I stated that the Gallente that were on Caldari Prime could choose to remain there, not that they would be forced to remain there. If they stay, they accept State jurisdiction, it's quite simple.

Lyn Farel wrote:
Or maybe that the Gallente natives that have lived on Caldari Prime for generations now just do not share the importance the Caldari put on their homeworld ?

Ah, yes, it is not their cultural homeworld.

Of course.


Your glibness does you no credit, especially since you are stating that which I have not.

Lyn Farel wrote:
If you really are looking for a starting point to negociations, it might be better to put on the table the sovereignty of a neutral entity over the whole system, including Caldari Prime.


I would be willing to accept this.

Lyn Farel wrote:
It was probably for some reason offensive that the Federation was in control of it before the war, but would that still be unacceptable if say, CONCORD, was in charge instead ?

Oh right. Is this all about power eventually ?


Which, of course, makes all of this irrelevant. Again, your sarcasm and glibness do you no credit and serve no purpose in this discussion, especially since it doesn't pertain to you to begin with.

~Malcolm Khross
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#27 - 2013-02-27 04:57:39 UTC
If it weren't for the fact that my parents live on Luminaire I wouldn't give a tinker's damn what you Caldari and Gallente do to each other. It's pretty obvious from all the same crap arguments that break out all the time that there's no solution to this and that each side is hardened and unwilling to make any concessions. Anyone who dares to ask a question is shouted down by nationalist zealots. Fine. Glass each others planets. Just give me a chance to get my parents the hell out before you kill each other.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#28 - 2013-02-27 04:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Unwilling to make any concessions? Thats yet to be seen Ms. Rella. The Federation has yet to make any demands that I am aware of in regards to an ending of hostilities. We Caldari have made but one.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2013-02-27 06:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You took Home by force. You kept Home by force. You made us take it back by force and you ensure that the only way we can keep it, is by force. The Federation introduced military force into this dialog and they have kept it firmly there. Don't play games and suggest this is all about Caldari aggression. It isn't, we're simply speaking the language that YOU taught us.


E'nope. Wasn't there. You're also making a lot of presumptions about what I said.

At least attempt to see both sides of the question. I have.


Frankly, that is never evident based on your comments, Mr Inhonores. And I have tried to see both sides, I simply don't regard them as even slightly comparable.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#30 - 2013-02-27 12:42:26 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
The same old arguments, accusations, and recriminations.


Alas, it appears you are right. We're as bad as those who argue slavery.

I'd just note who it was who actively went out of their way to end the war last time around, and leave it at that.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-02-27 13:00:16 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'd just note who it was who actively went out of their way to end the war last time around, and leave it at that.


You mean CONCORD?

History wrote:
The matter was finally settled when CONCORD, at that point a relatively new entity that had yet to truly establish itself, decided that the war, posing as it did a threat to New Eden’s diplomatic and economic stability, had gone on long enough. Sensing tiredness on both sides after the Iyen-Oursta battle, they used the opportunity to open peace talks between the two obstinate adversaries and were, within six months, able to broker a ceasefire agreement acceptable to both sides. The Federation acknowledged the Caldari State as sovereign and both sides were to retain their original outposts and settlements, except for Caldari Prime, which remained under Federation control.


The discovery of the Amarr Empire by the Gallente Federation and a new threat assessment aside, of course.

~Malcolm Khross
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#32 - 2013-02-27 13:36:44 UTC
This speech is spot on.
I am glad to see the State Executor back in public and, above all, getting back to his former self.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Tykari
The Observatory
#33 - 2013-02-27 19:16:05 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Yet another Gallente apologist who claims that Caldari Prime is of no importance to the Gallente and yet won't countenance them parting with it - even if the alternative is war and an escalation of the current conflict.

If the world is so fracking unimportant to you, then DO please just give the damn thing back. I assure you, it is important to us.


I'm assuming that was directed towards me in which case, may I remind you that my own Homeworld, Intaki is currently undergoing a ground war involving both Federation and State ground troops. If you're intent on taking and keeping ours why should I care if you get yours? Don't expect much sympathy from me if you bring the same suffering you endured down on others while trying to claim the moral high ground. It may not be orbital bombardments but plenty of people will be suffering and dying.

The fact that the State essentially annexed Intaki for the State, while worrying at first, didn't end up bothering me. It didn't matter who owned it as far as I was concerned, as long as my people were safe. If my people did the same thing as you did all those years ago and leave en masse for another world you have my permission to blast it to pieces for all I care.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#34 - 2013-02-27 20:04:04 UTC
I think comparing the current ground fighting on Intaki and other planets in the mandated warzone to the exodus of the caldari people is that way off the mark one doesn't even have to go into details.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-02-27 20:37:33 UTC
Tykari wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Yet another Gallente apologist who claims that Caldari Prime is of no importance to the Gallente and yet won't countenance them parting with it - even if the alternative is war and an escalation of the current conflict.

If the world is so fracking unimportant to you, then DO please just give the damn thing back. I assure you, it is important to us.


I'm assuming that was directed towards me in which case, may I remind you that my own Homeworld, Intaki is currently undergoing a ground war involving both Federation and State ground troops. If you're intent on taking and keeping ours why should I care if you get yours? Don't expect much sympathy from me if you bring the same suffering you endured down on others while trying to claim the moral high ground. It may not be orbital bombardments but plenty of people will be suffering and dying.

The fact that the State essentially annexed Intaki for the State, while worrying at first, didn't end up bothering me. It didn't matter who owned it as far as I was concerned, as long as my people were safe. If my people did the same thing as you did all those years ago and leave en masse for another world you have my permission to blast it to pieces for all I care.


Intaki has been deemed to be part of the CEWPA warzone by Concord and the other nations. Frankly I think it's absurd that such a heavily populated planet has been essentially 'put up for grabs' and I've expressed this opinion more than once.

Can I remind you that the ground fighting is now near-universal in the warzone? It wasn't a unilateral invasion by the State, it was a modification to the terms of the CEWPA legislation that applies to all sides. The State is currently sweeping the Warzone, but you know this is cyclical and do you imagine the Federation will hold back when their time to reclaim the system comes?

The only way to fix this problem is to resolve the underlying conflict. I'm sorry that your world got dragged into it, but it did and that's the situation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2013-02-27 21:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

Isn't it a bit hypocrite to refuse by any means that your own home being ruled by a foreign power and asking to others to deal with the exact same thing ?


Except I have not done this, so don't infer that I have. I stated that the Gallente that were on Caldari Prime could choose to remain there, not that they would be forced to remain there. If they stay, they accept State jurisdiction, it's quite simple.


That is the main issue isn't it ?

That is exactly what you have done.

Nobody forced the Caldari to leave when Caldari Prime got occupied by a foreign power. People lived here, the Gallente told them to get along or get out of their homes. Now, people live here, the Caldari (according to you) should tell them to get along or get out of their homes.



Malcolm Khross wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
If you really are looking for a starting point to negociations, it might be better to put on the table the sovereignty of a neutral entity over the whole system, including Caldari Prime.


I would be willing to accept this.


Good then. I am surprised, it is actually the first time I hear that coming from the Caldari side.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2013-02-27 21:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
It was probably for some reason offensive that the Federation was in control of it before the war, but would that still be unacceptable if say, CONCORD, was in charge instead ?

Oh right. Is this all about power eventually ?


Which, of course, makes all of this irrelevant. Again, your sarcasm and glibness do you no credit and serve no purpose in this discussion, especially since it doesn't pertain to you to begin with.


I sure does me more credit than childish drivels coming from selfish interests.

I can assure you it does pertain to me more than you would like to believe. If you believe that this cluster wide conflict only concerns the two parties directly involved, then it may well be misplaced pride indeed.
Tykari
The Observatory
#38 - 2013-02-27 21:25:33 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tykari wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Yet another Gallente apologist who claims that Caldari Prime is of no importance to the Gallente and yet won't countenance them parting with it - even if the alternative is war and an escalation of the current conflict.

If the world is so fracking unimportant to you, then DO please just give the damn thing back. I assure you, it is important to us.


I'm assuming that was directed towards me in which case, may I remind you that my own Homeworld, Intaki is currently undergoing a ground war involving both Federation and State ground troops. If you're intent on taking and keeping ours why should I care if you get yours? Don't expect much sympathy from me if you bring the same suffering you endured down on others while trying to claim the moral high ground. It may not be orbital bombardments but plenty of people will be suffering and dying.

The fact that the State essentially annexed Intaki for the State, while worrying at first, didn't end up bothering me. It didn't matter who owned it as far as I was concerned, as long as my people were safe. If my people did the same thing as you did all those years ago and leave en masse for another world you have my permission to blast it to pieces for all I care.


Intaki has been deemed to be part of the CEWPA warzone by Concord and the other nations. Frankly I think it's absurd that such a heavily populated planet has been essentially 'put up for grabs' and I've expressed this opinion more than once.

Can I remind you that the ground fighting is now near-universal in the warzone? It wasn't a unilateral invasion by the State, it was a modification to the terms of the CEWPA legislation that applies to all sides. The State is currently sweeping the Warzone, but you know this is cyclical and do you imagine the Federation will hold back when their time to reclaim the system comes?

The only way to fix this problem is to resolve the underlying conflict. I'm sorry that your world got dragged into it, but it did and that's the situation.


I'm well aware this conflict spans several worlds over. There is a big warzone out there, one that yes, is considered legal by CONCORD because they couldn't stop it if they wanted to, so they had no choice.

But many among the Caldari have been using Caldari Prime as a justification for the One day war. Because even though you and the State didn't really need it to survive , it was your Homeworld, and you saw it as such a vitally important part of the Caldari identity you could not live without it for one moment longer, that it needed to be reclaimed by force no matter the cost and inevitable consequences right then and there. And of course that the Federation was and is wrong in what they did and are doing.

Now I don't have an issue with that last bit at all, the Federation never should have blockaded and bombarded Caldari Prime.
It was your Homeworld and when it comes down to it, it should be yours.

But considering how well you understand what it is like when someone takes control of your Homeworld away from you, Caldari loyalists had no issues to take control of someone else's when you were given the chance and the State was all to happy to consider it theirs. Now luckily Ishukone stepped in and managed to keep it conflict free and the people relatively safe for as long as they did, I can't say I feel confident that a different Megacorp or the Navy would have been so considerate, so I'm grateful to them for that. But even with counting that saving grace, it makes the State in my eyes not that much better than the Federation in the final analysis.

And yes the only way to end this insanity is to solve the conflict. And either both worlds are governed by a neutral party like CONCORD, which I still don't think either side's ruling bodies would be willing to accept, or both sides actually come to some form agreement they both will honor, which even less likely.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-02-27 22:01:01 UTC
Scherezad wrote:


I echo many of your sentiments, sir, but for one fact: we had no choice but to take up arms. Ours was the active goal - the reclamation of our homeworld. Were we to turn aside our Titan, we would lose that goal which you admit ought be ours. We are as bound as the Federation, and the Federation as guilty as we for this conflict.

We are equal in our desire for peace, it is only upon the terms of that peace where we differ. A hopeful thought.


In addition to the Titan and it's fleet, there is an increasing build up Caldari military forces in the system and on Caldari Prime itself. This is going beyond just trying to establish a foothold. The Caldari are either preparing to repel an enormous invasion or are preparing to launch an attack. Considering the Federation has yet to show any intention of launching an attack, the latter is more likely.

I do believe that if the Caldari withdraw their military forces before getting their planet back, then they will never get it back. However it is clear that they are capable of and willing to resort to warfare if they don't get what they want. Tibus Heth is just waiting for an excuse to reclaim Caldari prime and possibly Conquer Gallente Prime as well. Why wouldn't he want to take over Gallente Prime? Why wouldn't Mr. Heth not want the Federation to suffer as the State suffered? You simply don't need enough fire power to destroy a world, to defend one.

Is there a Gallente Titan in the system? No. Is there a military build up on the Gallente side? No. Are the Gallente leaders making speeches about destroying their enemy once and for all? No.

Both sides are responsible for this mess, however it is very clear that Tibus Heth wants to make things even messier. As long as that man in power, or even alive, there cannot be peace. No matter how much the people of both nations want it, Tibus Heth will see to it that it doesn't happen. One planet isn't all he is after, he wants more. Whether it's money, power, Gallente Prime or all of the above, he isn't satisfied with just getting his people's homeworld back.

I have observed (yet haven't taken part in sadly) the warfare between the Nullsec alliances. You don't need a force as big as the one Tibus Heth rode into Luminaire to take one planet, or an entire system for that matter.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-02-27 22:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Lyn Farel wrote:

That is the main issue isn't it ?

That is exactly what you have done.

Nobody forced the Caldari to leave when Caldari Prime got occupied by a foreign power. People lived here, the Gallente told them to get along or get out of their homes. Now, people live here, the Caldari (according to you) should tell them to get along or get out of their homes.


You are an absolute moron and you are speaking out of absolute ignorance.

Caldari Prime was being bombarded from space. A sustained orbital bombardment. In case you don't understand what that means, it means it was a long term, orbital destruction of homes, terrain, infrastructure and industry.

Nobody forced us to leave? Educate yourself or be silent.

I should have kept you ignored, it's better for my blood pressure.

~Malcolm Khross
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