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What is the answer?

Author
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-02-27 00:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Lately, there has been much talk concerning who is "right" in the war between the Gallente Federation and the Caldari State. The Gallente-Caldari War began when I was young (I'm 208) and hasn't stopped since then. I have fought, won, and lost; I have seen that there is no right side in this war. There are greater threats to the whole of humanity that can only be faced if we stand together and this pitiful conflict serves only to weaken us.

I have opened this line of discussion so that we, the capsuleer community, can discuss constructive ideas for ending the conflict. What is the answer to this question, which has persisted for over a century: how do we end the Gallente-Caldari War?

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-02-27 01:35:10 UTC
This has been answered repeatedly: the Gallente must give up all claim to the Caldari homeworld, in perpetuity.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#3 - 2013-02-27 01:41:41 UTC
Vikarion-haan correctly identifies the solution, though I'd have to couple it with the removal of Tibus Heth and his anti-Gallente rhetoric from the highest offices in the State and perhaps the demilitarization of Luminarie by CONCORD as a buffer zone. As long as the Federation lays claim to Caldari Prime there will always be those who will be willing to lay down their lives for it.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-02-27 01:43:37 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
This has been answered repeatedly: the Gallente must give up all claim to the Caldari homeworld, in perpetuity.


Yes, but how can this be done both peacefully and to the satisfaction of both the Gallente and the Caldari? Both claim the planet as their own, and strictly speaking it does belong to both. This issue is far more complicated than simply handing over sovereignty of a planet.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-27 01:53:47 UTC
No one is truly right here, each side has committed their own share of atrocities. The best thing to do is remove Tibus Heth from power, return Caldari Prime to State control and demilitarize Luminaire.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#6 - 2013-02-27 05:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
If the Amarr Empire can give up enough slaves to populate a planet in the interest of peace then I don't see why the Gallente Federation can't part with one as well. And I'm pretty sure doing so would be a lot more successful towards that goal of peace than our own offerings have been. The Caldari are ruthlessly efficient but they're not generally genocidal. Does anyone honestly think they would just haul off and attack the Federation without provocation? Compared to the Empire, the Federation are being offered a sweet deal: One planet and the Caldari will leave you alone forever. If only the Republic was so easily appeased.

Yet there some real irony, here: One nation claims that they believe in freedom & the right to chose one's own path. The other believes in minding their own business and not interfering with other nation's ways of life. From where we Amarr are sitting, someone isn't telling the truth. Hint: It's not the one who keep telling us we need to hold "free elections."

If the Federation truly believes in what they claim to on the surface then it is in their own best interest to let the Caldari keep their homeworld. Because by this point still trying to make any claims to Caldari Prime are only going to make the Federation look like hypocrites, preaching one thing in one hand and acting out the opposite with the other.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-02-27 05:51:39 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
If the Amarr Empire can give up enough slaves to populate a planet in the interest of peace then I don't see why the Gallente Federation can't part with one as well. And I'm pretty sure doing so would be a lot more successful towards that goal of peace than our own offerings have been. The Caldari are ruthlessly efficient but they're not generally genocidal. Does anyone honestly think they would just haul off and attack the Federation without provocation? Compared to the Empire, the Federation are being offered a sweet deal: One planet and the Caldari will leave you alone forever. If only the Republic was so easily appeased.

Yet there some real irony, here: One nation claims that they believe in freedom & the right to chose one's own path. The other believes in minding their own business and not interfering with other nation's ways of life. From where we Amarr are sitting, someone isn't telling the truth. Hint: It's not the one who keep telling us we need to hold "free elections."

If the Federation truly believes in what they claim to on the surface then it is in their own best interest to let the Caldari keep their homeworld. Because by this point still trying to make any claims to Caldari Prime are only going to make the Federation look like hypocrites, preaching one thing in one hand and acting out the opposite with the other.


I agree. The only way this situation will resolve itself is if the Federation releases Caldari Prime. However, the only way I can see that happening peacefully is if Tibus Heth steps down. Only then will Federation administrators be comfortable dealing with the Caldari State.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2013-02-27 06:41:42 UTC
For so long as Caldari Prime is a political football in the State, Tibus Heth will continue to use it as a lever to keep power in his hands. The very existence of his position as Executor, depends on a state of emergency and will not last during peace.

Honestly, the best way to be rid of him is to settle the issue of Caldari Prime.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-02-27 06:48:04 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
For so long as Caldari Prime is a political football in the State, Tibus Heth will continue to use it as a lever to keep power in his hands. The very existence of his position as Executor, depends on a state of emergency and will not last during peace.

Honestly, the best way to be rid of him is to settle the issue of Caldari Prime.


Try explaining that to Mentas Blaque. While he isn't the final authority, he's very popular and determined. Whats more, his position isn' elected, so he will be here for a while. Heth is old and has made some questionable decisions regarding the welfare of his people.

Honestly, I think it would be easier if he named a successor, one committed to peace, and stepped down.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#10 - 2013-02-27 06:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
The Executor's position is solely at the mandate of the CEP. They've decided to maintain him in his position despite his recent breaches of tradition and, frankly, I don't see that changing soon.

Perhaps we simply have to wait out Roden?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-02-27 07:22:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The Executor's position is solely at the mandate of the CEP. They've decided to maintain him in his position despite his recent breaches of tradition and, frankly, I don't see that changing soon.

Perhaps we simply have to wait out Roden?


Maybe we have to wait out both.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Naraish Adarn
Alexylva Paradox
#12 - 2013-02-27 08:53:35 UTC
Couldn't we just borrow page or two from black eagles and borrow both of em along with their high ranking supporters. deposit them to a nice asteroid colony with plenty of food, water and air. then let them sort it out between each other while rest of us deal with the political fallout and get this mess sorted finally?

or would this be far too optimistic since by sound of it whole mess is partially caused by stagnation in political landscape of both State and Federation.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-02-27 10:09:58 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
This has been answered repeatedly: the Gallente must give up all claim to the Caldari homeworld, in perpetuity.


Yes, but how can this be done both peacefully and to the satisfaction of both the Gallente and the Caldari? Both claim the planet as their own, and strictly speaking it does belong to both. This issue is far more complicated than simply handing over sovereignty of a planet.


To the question? It cannot. The Gallente have indicated that they have no intention of allowing the Caldari to retain Caldari Prime, with some also advocating annexation of Black Rise, or, on the right wing of Gallente politics, the conquest and destruction of the State. The Caldari, on the other hand, will not accept any solution that leaves the Gallente with ownership of Caldari Prime. I only know one Caldari capsuleer who advocated permanent conquest of Federal lands, however.

To your statement, theft does not convey property, and the Caldari have never agreed to the right of the Gallente to the Caldari homeworld. From the Caldari point of view, which I espouse, stating that the Gallente own Caldari Prime is a bit like stating that, while the Minmatar own themselves, the Amarr also own the Minmatar, and wouldn't it be nice if we could come to a compromise wherein the Minmatar agreed to be partially enslaved.
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-02-27 10:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zsaryna Adrelana
Here's a thought
Heth vs Roden or Blaque, zero gravity cage fight.
Winner gets Caldari prime
Wouldn't that be a far more efficient solution than this bloody duel by proxy?
I could even sell tickets and be the richest woman in the galaxy

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.

Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-02-27 13:16:25 UTC
Agreed. The Federation recognises Caldari Sov on Caldari Prime, in return for a POW exchange, the release of all civilian hostages on the planet and normalisation of borders and relations.

Then we can talk about trade deals, no?
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#16 - 2013-02-27 13:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I must admit, I find it incredibly strange that neither head of state has apparantly even laid down "terms" for the ending of the conflict. Worrying, even.

Many people name Caldari Prime as the sole crux, but is that really the case? Would President Roden surrender his claims over the Black Rise region, at this point, even if the planet was taken? Would the Executor do likewise, only with Placid...? Neither of them have made any statement, even though that seems long overdue.

It seems to lend, unfortunately, quite a bit of credence to the idea that neither of them paticularly wants the war to conclude, for one reason or another.
Nick Shale
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#17 - 2013-02-27 15:31:44 UTC
The Federation should make a Referendum of the people, after all they are the ones dying. The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few right, isn't that what your so call freedom is about.

Tibus Heth this.... Tibus Heth that.... , if it weren't for his leadership Caldarians would be eating souffles and croissants while watching porn holoreels like the rest of Gallente.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#18 - 2013-02-27 17:24:25 UTC
Nick Shale wrote:
The Federation should make a Referendum of the people, after all they are the ones dying. The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few right, isn't that what your so call freedom is about.

Tibus Heth this.... Tibus Heth that.... , if it weren't for his leadership Caldarians would be eating souffles and croissants while watching **** holoreels like the rest of Gallente.


Nice bit of patronizing racism there, pilot. I grew up in the Federation and I can assure you that my parents never fed me croissants or made me watch adult holos. Pig.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-02-27 19:19:35 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Nick Shale wrote:
The Federation should make a Referendum of the people, after all they are the ones dying. The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few right, isn't that what your so call freedom is about.

Tibus Heth this.... Tibus Heth that.... , if it weren't for his leadership Caldarians would be eating souffles and croissants while watching **** holoreels like the rest of Gallente.


Nice bit of patronizing racism there, pilot. I grew up in the Federation and I can assure you that my parents never fed me croissants or made me watch adult holos. Pig.


Thank you Anabella. I didn't set foot in Gallente space until I was 11 years old. I was born on Matar, which, I think, affords me an uncommon perspective on my native culture. Many Gallenteans are gluttonous, decadent pigs without a thought beyond their own appetites; frankly they're useless. Some of us, Including myself, are working to change that.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#20 - 2013-02-27 19:46:35 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
I must admit, I find it incredibly strange that neither head of state has apparantly even laid down "terms" for the ending of the conflict. Worrying, even.

It's not a conflict that either side intends to end, Captain Ikiryo.

But, of course, you are aware of my interpretation of the issue already.
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