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T2 Ship Production Bottlenecks
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Jaden Li
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-02-26 17:05:26 UTC
Hi,

Just wondering where the bottlenecks are in T2 ship production. If I was doing my own T2 Component Building, Invention and finally Ship Building, where would I likely run into my first bottleneck as far as manufacturing slots go?

I'm trying to work out a manufacturing pipeline based on about 6 characters and I'm trying to work out how best to train them in terms of which characters should specialize into which part of the overall process first.

Two Component Builders / Two Inventors / One Ship Builder ???

I realize all of this will become apparent with experience, but I don't want to spend a month training all the characters only to realize I should have had more ship builders or something.

Any advice much appreciated.
Gianath
Gallentian Legitimate Businessmen
#2 - 2013-02-26 18:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gianath
Jaden Li wrote:
Hi,

Just wondering where the bottlenecks are in T2 ship production. If I was doing my own T2 Component Building, Invention and finally Ship Building, where would I likely run into my first bottleneck as far as manufacturing slots go?

I'm trying to work out a manufacturing pipeline based on about 6 characters and I'm trying to work out how best to train them in terms of which characters should specialize into which part of the overall process first.

Two Component Builders / Two Inventors / One Ship Builder ???

I realize all of this will become apparent with experience, but I don't want to spend a month training all the characters only to realize I should have had more ship builders or something.

Any advice much appreciated.


This is kind of a tall order to do it all yourself, since you will need to get involved in a POS, PI, mining, researching T1 blueprints, copying T1 blueprints, manufacturing the T1 products, exploring/missioning for components, faction warfare and research agents for datacores, and moon mining/reactions in hostile space. Then there is the problem with many T2 ships being unprofitable to make for various reasons.

You are really going to need to expect to either buy some of these components off the market, or joining a corp where some of this infrastructure is already in place. Doing all of this even split between 5 characters will take 6 months to a year anyway. Start small is my advice and focus on a couple of different aspects of the process (starting out by honing mining skills, researching large numbers of BPO's in low sec stations, getting involved in faction warfare, and dabbling in PI to see how it works) before you invest fully in this path.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-27 01:02:22 UTC
Copy times.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Ravenclaw2kk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-02-27 06:12:40 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


This. Assuming you are going for Max Run copies to invent using decryptors.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#5 - 2013-02-27 10:07:44 UTC
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


This. Assuming you are going for Max Run copies to invent using decryptors.



For reference, Max run copies are /less/ important than they need to be, due to a change in the way the code works.

Now they're, with rigs and ships, the difference between getting (with a +9 decrytor for example) 9 or 10 runs.

Max run can still be worth it, of course. All about the math.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#6 - 2013-02-27 11:48:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Iogrim
Jaden Li wrote:
Hi,

Just wondering where the bottlenecks are in T2 ship production. If I was doing my own T2 Component Building, Invention and finally Ship Building, where would I likely run into my first bottleneck as far as manufacturing slots go?

I'm trying to work out a manufacturing pipeline based on about 6 characters and I'm trying to work out how best to train them in terms of which characters should specialize into which part of the overall process first.

Two Component Builders / Two Inventors / One Ship Builder ???

I realize all of this will become apparent with experience, but I don't want to spend a month training all the characters only to realize I should have had more ship builders or something.

Any advice much appreciated.


Depends on what you produce. The key is to setup the way you don't have any bottleneck at all. For cruisers, 2 components producers for 1 hull producer (10 slots each). 3-run BPCs. For BS hulls, 3:1, 1-run BPCs. No idea about frigates, too much hassle.

You don't need max run copies anymore. Posters above, stop being bad.

Inventors use science slots, not manufacturing. 1.5 inventor should be enough for 1 hull producer. Depends on how many run BPCs you produce though. 6 copying slots (2 adv. labs) will be plenty for your 6 characters. Unless you want to burn out sooner playing with 1-run BPCs.

PM me if you want more details. Lots of bad advice in forums. Don't listen to anyone here who doesn't have first-hand experience.
Lupus Borealis
The Lupus Borealis
#7 - 2013-02-27 23:26:31 UTC
Big boys blowing up your sandcastle in lowsec.
Lakhthaar
STK Scientific
#8 - 2013-02-28 21:07:11 UTC
As far as T2 components go you will spend the majority of your time building microprocessors and armor plates. You will also find building RAM Starship to be time consuming. You will want to avoid buying the RAM off the market if you can since the markups are significant.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#9 - 2013-03-02 20:29:48 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


I've found that manufacturing is my bottleneck. I keep having to add new cans to further sort my T1 copies as each can hits the 1000 item limit, and my T2 BPC collection is (I think) slowly growing.

It depends on what you're building.
20 copies of a frigate takes ~20 hours on one slot and will keep a 10 slot invention character running for 25 hours.
20 max run copies of a module takes ~50 hours (it's 2d and something) on one slot and will keep a 10 slot invention character running for 2.5 hours.

So if you're primarily building Modules, coping will be your bottleneck. If you're mixed, it depends on the mix.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#10 - 2013-03-03 00:51:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


I've found that manufacturing is my bottleneck. I keep having to add new cans to further sort my T1 copies as each can hits the 1000 item limit, and my T2 BPC collection is (I think) slowly growing.

It depends on what you're building.
20 copies of a frigate takes ~20 hours on one slot and will keep a 10 slot invention character running for 25 hours.
20 max run copies of a module takes ~50 hours (it's 2d and something) on one slot and will keep a 10 slot invention character running for 2.5 hours.

So if you're primarily building Modules, coping will be your bottleneck. If you're mixed, it depends on the mix.



This.

Things also get interesting when you take into account you're not going to be online 24/7 (hopefully). Modules runs (in a POS) take around an hour for invention. Rigs take 6. If you have a normal life, you /might/ get 2 runs a day for rigs. You won't get 12 module runs. (this is per slot, of course)

Makes the math a trifle more complex.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ravenclaw2kk
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-03-03 23:53:48 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


This. Assuming you are going for Max Run copies to invent using decryptors.



For reference, Max run copies are /less/ important than they need to be, due to a change in the way the code works.

Now they're, with rigs and ships, the difference between getting (with a +9 decrytor for example) 9 or 10 runs.

Max run can still be worth it, of course. All about the math.



Ah, yes. I forgot about that change as I have not produced any ships since the 'fix.'

I haven't tested it yet, but does it now mean that if you use a +9 run decryptor on a 1-run frig bpc, that you will get a 10-run T2 bpc?
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#12 - 2013-03-04 07:05:54 UTC
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:

Ah, yes. I forgot about that change as I have not produced any ships since the 'fix.'

I haven't tested it yet, but does it now mean that if you use a +9 run decryptor on a 1-run frig bpc, that you will get a 10-run T2 bpc?


Yes.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#13 - 2013-03-04 10:38:48 UTC
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Copy times.


This. Assuming you are going for Max Run copies to invent using decryptors.



For reference, Max run copies are /less/ important than they need to be, due to a change in the way the code works.

Now they're, with rigs and ships, the difference between getting (with a +9 decrytor for example) 9 or 10 runs.

Max run can still be worth it, of course. All about the math.



Ah, yes. I forgot about that change as I have not produced any ships since the 'fix.'

I haven't tested it yet, but does it now mean that if you use a +9 run decryptor on a 1-run frig bpc, that you will get a 10-run T2 bpc?


Nope. 9 runs.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


For a Wolf:

T1 Max runs is 30
T2 max runs is 10

so:
MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (1/30)*(10/10)+9),1),10)

MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN(1/30+9),1,10)
MIN(MAX(9,1),10)
MIN(9,10)

so 9.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#14 - 2013-03-04 10:47:01 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Nope. 9 runs.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


For a Wolf:

T1 Max runs is 30
T2 max runs is 10

so:
MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (1/30)*(10/10)+9),1),10)

MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN(1/30+9),1,10)
MIN(MAX(9,1),10)
MIN(9,10)

so 9.


+2 decryptors for me give 3 run BPCs. So either your formulas are wrong, or it's different for +9 decryptors for some reason (rounding etc.).

Have you tested +9 decryptors or are you just pasting the formulas?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#15 - 2013-03-04 10:53:15 UTC
Iogrim wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Nope. 9 runs.

Invention Output Runs = MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (Input_T1_BPC_Runs / T1_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy) * (T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy / 10) + Decryptor_Runs_Bonus), 1), T2_Max_Runs_Per_Blueprint_Copy)


For a Wolf:

T1 Max runs is 30
T2 max runs is 10

so:
MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN( (1/30)*(10/10)+9),1),10)

MIN(MAX(ROUND_DOWN(1/30+9),1,10)
MIN(MAX(9,1),10)
MIN(9,10)

so 9.


+2 decryptors for me give 3 run BPCs. So either your formulas are wrong, or it's different for +9 decryptors for some reason (rounding etc.).

Have you tested +9 decryptors or are you just pasting the formulas?



In this case, just pasting.

I guess I should probably wander over to sisi to try it out.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#16 - 2013-03-04 10:59:33 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
In this case, just pasting.

I guess I should probably wander over to sisi to try it out.


It's already this way since summer expansion. If you plug in numbers for +2 decryptor, according to "official" formula the result is is 2-run BPC. While in reality you get 3-run BPC. I would know since I have done literally thousands of such ship inventions since the change.

Don't want to sound arrogant, but to repeat myself from earlier post in this thread:
"Lots of bad advice in forums. Don't listen to anyone here who doesn't have first-hand experience."
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2013-03-04 11:13:03 UTC
Iogrim wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
In this case, just pasting.

I guess I should probably wander over to sisi to try it out.


It's already this way since summer expansion. If you plug in numbers for +2 decryptor, according to "official" formula the result is is 2-run BPC. While in reality you get 3-run BPC. I would know since I have done literally thousands of such ship inventions since the change.

Don't want to sound arrogant, but to repeat myself from earlier post in this thread:
"Lots of bad advice in forums. Don't listen to anyone here who doesn't have first-hand experience."



What do you get out with a max run BPC?

Or are max runs now utterly pointless for invention with a t2 max run of 10?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#18 - 2013-03-04 11:51:21 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Iogrim wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
In this case, just pasting.

I guess I should probably wander over to sisi to try it out.


It's already this way since summer expansion. If you plug in numbers for +2 decryptor, according to "official" formula the result is is 2-run BPC. While in reality you get 3-run BPC. I would know since I have done literally thousands of such ship inventions since the change.

Don't want to sound arrogant, but to repeat myself from earlier post in this thread:
"Lots of bad advice in forums. Don't listen to anyone here who doesn't have first-hand experience."



What do you get out with a max run BPC?

Or are max runs now utterly pointless for invention with a t2 max run of 10?


Second case.