These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Legitimate game mechanic.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#121 - 2013-02-26 12:17:45 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
I kinda dislike the need for a millitia member to have an alt run your cargo within your own miltia space:
- it's a real obstacle for newer players.



Quite literally, 4 hours training.


4.


I don't see that as an obstacle...I made my first alt hauler char the first time I was at war. Back then you wound up with a whole bunch of useless SP no matter what you picked for char. creation. With improved training times now, there is zero excuse for those who find themselves at war in hi-sec to not have a neutral hauler.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-02-26 13:02:49 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
I kinda dislike the need for a millitia member to have an alt run your cargo within your own miltia space:
- it's a real obstacle for newer players.



Quite literally, 4 hours training.


4.


I don't see that as an obstacle...I made my first alt hauler char the first time I was at war. Back then you wound up with a whole bunch of useless SP no matter what you picked for char. creation. With improved training times now, there is zero excuse for those who find themselves at war in hi-sec to not have a neutral hauler.


You are right ofcourse, concerning training time (i'd make it a little more than 4 hours, as i've learned that being able to get in to a ship is something diferent than lying it.) But that is only part of the obstacle. The whole concept of needing alts is rather alien to most new players.

as aside on from the actual training time (once you figured that out) there is a different way of thinking needed, if you're not acustomed to the mechanics of a Sandbox MMO.

I know it's nothing to bad or you can't work arround, but should it be something we want in the case of faction war.

I can see the the conscription advertisment already.


The Anmar Empire need you, fight for the glory of the empire and lose relative ly safe passage through the empire as wel as the abillity to dock at rival low sec stations.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-02-26 13:08:16 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
The whole concept of needing alts is rather alien to most new players.


Because no one in WoW has an enchanting\tailoring\blacksmithing\mining\herbalist alt that they use so they don't have to deal with others?
Gen Fesslenski
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-02-26 13:11:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
If said game mechanics aren't visible unless you know to look for it, happen upon it on accident, or have the situation happen to you, then yeah, ignorance is a bit less their fault and more at the fault of lack of good ways to discover the mechanic before it becomes an issue.

I guess it's good that none of these are true.


Realistically, I only found out Jita was full from reading this post here. How would I have known in-game until I tried to jump through the gate?

I think a way to see if your jump will fail or not before you attempt do a session change would be an interesting and useful game mechanic. For example, having color coding on the 'landing strip' style lights so when you jump in on a target sitting on gate you can already see if it's worth burning in to engage or not.

On the other hand, if you got killed by a GlassCat, you were probably killed by a suicide ganker who happened to be looking for freight and saw a war target. Those 600dps Catalysts are great for facerape but terrible in most engagements that last more than 5 seconds.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#125 - 2013-02-26 13:12:24 UTC
you don't even need an alt for hauling when you can contract it out to couriers.

forums.  serious business.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-02-26 13:58:24 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
The whole concept of needing alts is rather alien to most new players.


Because no one in WoW has an enchanting\tailoring\blacksmithing\mining\herbalist alt that they use so they don't have to deal with others?



Non of those alts are realy needed, not half as hard as you need an alt in EVE.


Most alts in MMO's like that are made to play the game from an other perspective.

Skeln Thargensen wrote:
you don't even need an alt for hauling when you can contract it out to couriers


also true but not really cost effective when you are a small time militia player.


There are several ways arround it, though again why should there be, in case if the millitia soldier flying through his own faction space.

he's not hanging arround in a secluded part o the system, he's in line for the gate that is controled by the very State which he serves.
Rike Ewann
#127 - 2013-02-26 15:04:10 UTC
CCP does need to do something about all of the spammers in the trade hubs.

It's very easy to claim it was all his fault.

I would imagine he was fit to avoid ganks such as these. (which is easy)

If all scammers were warned to clear out within a week or get banned for spamming then he would have been able to make it in.

Ban every one of them. It would not be hard for a GM to take 2-3 hours out of his busy schedule of cut and paste petitioning to start banning all of the scammers.

I am not against a scam....but spamming them in trade hubs all day should be against the rules.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#128 - 2013-02-26 15:15:11 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
also true but not really cost effective when you are a small time militia player.


it can be though. like this dude pulling 350M of ammo into jita could probably get that done for a few million. depends on how many jumps. I regularly ship minerals via public contract in high sec and it's quite surprising how little people pick them up for.

forums.  serious business.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-02-26 15:26:47 UTC
Came in expecting to see a guy crying over a game mechanic he professes he's not. Left satisfied.

Don't ban me, bro!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#130 - 2013-02-26 15:30:33 UTC
Gen Fesslenski wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
If said game mechanics aren't visible unless you know to look for it, happen upon it on accident, or have the situation happen to you, then yeah, ignorance is a bit less their fault and more at the fault of lack of good ways to discover the mechanic before it becomes an issue.

I guess it's good that none of these are true.


Realistically, I only found out Jita was full from reading this post here. How would I have known in-game until I tried to jump through the gate?

I think a way to see if your jump will fail or not before you attempt do a session change would be an interesting and useful game mechanic. For example, having color coding on the 'landing strip' style lights so when you jump in on a target sitting on gate you can already see if it's worth burning in to engage or not.

On the other hand, if you got killed by a GlassCat, you were probably killed by a suicide ganker who happened to be looking for freight and saw a war target. Those 600dps Catalysts are great for facerape but terrible in most engagements that last more than 5 seconds.

As I said before, I don't think anyone would object if either the new Auto Pilot Info Panel or the proposed new Notification Info Panel would indicate if a system on your auto pilot route was experiencing traffic control.

In fact, if Jita continues to be as crowded as it is, such a system might go a long way towards promoting a heavier reliance on other trade hubs (or potentially new ones). The reason being that currently you are already at Jita's doorstep when you find out about the congestion. However if you were notified when you laid in your auto pilot route it then might be much easier for you to divert to an alternate market at the very beginning of your journey.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#131 - 2013-02-26 15:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Dave Stark wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
He's trying to blame his inability to jump through immediately for causing his death, which is not the case at all.


except, it is.

We could just as easily blame his death on a few other pesky game mechanics that occasionally raise their ugly head with no warning.

Like that silly war mechanic, or perhaps the warp jamming/scramming mechanic that occurs without any advanced warning.

Maybe his death was actually caused by that whole "weapons cause damage" thing that occurs with no warning.

Perhaps it's the ship fitting mechanic at fault... it could be too complicated to figure out how to fit his hauler.

Ahh, I know, it's the training mechanic... which obviously made it too difficult to train up a Blockade Runner.

Actually we should probably go with the ever popular local mechanic as near Jita the list of people in system with you is apparently far to long to spot war targets waiting for you to jump into the next system.

The game mechanics also make it too difficult to have someone else haul it, get a scout, or go with a group of fellow FW pilots.


Or perhaps we could simply admit that his death was due to poor planning on his part, as just about everyone in this thread has pointed out, instead of trying to blame it on well known game mechanics that could potentially affect him. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#132 - 2013-02-26 15:55:04 UTC
The first thought I had is 350 mil....geezus why are you carrying that amount at all in a badger?

Do what I doodoo contract it out and pay well for for said contract as motivation to get you're deliverys fast a few mil won't kill you but losing 350 mil does hurt.
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-02-26 22:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Spooner
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Steve Spooner wrote:
It appears that people coming in to this thread assume I'm posting because of me crying for my loss and I say nay, I care not. I lost a 250 mill isk raven just earlier today because I felt grabbing a sandwich and forgot to get some missiles, my fault my loss. However in the case of my badger it was not due to my error but rather a "legitimate game mechanic" that I was killed.


You could have used this loss as a valuable opportunity to learn to fly appropriate ships for appropriate tasks. But alas, you don't seem to.

You don't go in with a schoolbus in the middle of a mined warzone, get stuck on a terrain bump, get hit by artillery and then complain against the bump. You just don't go in a warzone with a schoolbus. Period.

It's widely known since years that gate locks happen at Jita.
Deal with it, before others deal with you.


I'm sorry I can't hear you over the crunch of my BLT.

Such a loss was a mere set back in that I had to jump back to buy and fit a new raven. Then I decided I to do some plexing in a blaster merlin which has survived surprisingly long considering how half assed my gunnery skills are.

As to your little metaphor about buses, let's take it a step further. The entirety of The Forge is under Caldari State sovereignty. So I was a soldier driving a bus through home territory when, due to the "road bump" was not able to move. Out of nowhere an enemy combatant pulls a howitzer out of his ass and blows me up. That's more or less what happened. So was it my fault that there was a bump in the road?
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#134 - 2013-02-26 22:17:32 UTC
train new alt with:
Hull Upgrades IV
Amarr Industrial III


or


Right-click->create courier contract.


Two great options for those in the militia or at war.


Couriers are actually more cost-effective, because hauling your own **** (and yes I do it too) is stupid as hell. Two words here, Opportunity Cost. Every hour hauling is -100m or more of theoretical ratting $.

So would you rather...spend 2 minutes creating a courier contract, paying a few mil to a professional hauler or waste time jumping around, asking to get ganked in your unfit FW badger.

The only surprising thing here is the character in question made it so far without being suicide ganked on the way.


...and the best thing about this thread is the call for better traffic notifications, and infrastructure.





Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
dark heartt
#135 - 2013-02-27 00:25:01 UTC
Rike Ewann wrote:

I would imagine he was fit to avoid ganks such as these. (which is easy)


You imagine wrong. He had no fit at all. Not a module, not a rig. All that was on the KM was the Caldari Navy Missiles.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-02-27 03:18:23 UTC
Steve Spooner wrote:

As to your little metaphor about buses, let's take it a step further. The entirety of The Forge is under Caldari State sovereignty. So I was a soldier driving a bus through home territory when, due to the "road bump" was not able to move. Out of nowhere an enemy combatant pulls a howitzer out of his ass and blows me up. That's more or less what happened. So was it my fault that there was a bump in the road?


Yes, you were a soldier driving a bus through the "home territory" of World War 2 England. With nightly bombing raids. And drove the bus into a ditch during such a bombing raid. And "out of nowhere" a bomb fell on your head.

Yes, it's your fault for driving a bus, during a bombing raid, and not keeping your eyes on the road.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2013-02-27 03:38:52 UTC
Steve Spooner wrote:
I recently lost a badger with 350~ million isk worth of ammo, nothing new right?

Well I lost it in Niyabainen, 1.0 sec space. Well hey suicide ganks are still a viable strategy in this situation right?

Well I wasn't caught undocking from station, in some random belt, or any other situation where one can viably be killed in high sec. No, I was killed trying to warp through Jita gates and stopped because it was too congested.

As many know a badger warping is like trying to roll a space potato in a straight line, it takes more time than it should and it's painfully slow. So in comes a Minmatar wartarget in 1.0 sec caldari space and the second he gets on the gate he locks my ass down. I was 1000m from the Jita gate, I could have jumped through but nop, officals shut the gate down due to congestion which for all intents and purposes means the Jita node is a fustercluck of people trying to get in and everyone else spamming PLEX scams and such. So I petitioned this and I was given the response "Being killed on a gate because our servers were too full is a legit game mechanic" and yada yada yada. So what I'm left with is being told CCP hardware restrictions can directly translate in to there being a "legitimate game mechanic". In what other high sec system can you die because the gate doesn't allow you to jump through when you are within range.

Jeez people, keep it short and civil.

To clarify: My corp participates in faction warfare as Caldari state protecterate. Jita and the entirety of The Forge is Caldari space, and in comes a Minmatar pilot in a catalyst dealing ~400 dps. I did try to warp off when I saw that the gates were closed but he locked me down before I could warp because I'm in a BADGER. The corporation I am in has no active war declarations. I am not talking about the state of the game or the fact that I was blown up, I'm talking about the METHOD in which I was blown up. This isn't like low/null sec where you can scout things out and scan down the system for bubbles, it is a single choke point that closes and opens at a whim with no reliable way of activation without the "Jita gates are closed" etc etc message.

Oh also, it's my fault that Jita gates were closed? Really? Tell me how.

MORE CLARIFICATION: I'm not complaining about the loss/losses as it took me about 4 hours of sitting in complexes watching 5 episodes of the walking dead on my other monitor and glancing at local every once in a while. I got jumped a few times and by a few gate camps, but oh what's this? I BURNED TO THE GATE AND JUMPED THROUGH BECAUSE IT WASN'T CLOSED. And once again, cause of death was because Jita gates were closed, something that no amount of preparation or "scouting" would prevent. Really it comes down to how fast you can press jump and enter jump and enter jump and enter, rinse repeat until you're in. Also why would I go to the Amarr trading hub? There isn't a State Protecterate station within reasonable distance and the prices are subpar.

Also the thread title is "legitimate game mechanic" I'm not asking about the internal factors of this kill such as faction warfare, suicide ganking, etc. I'm saying that the ONLY reason I died was because I was denied use of gate due to Jita being overfilled which is due to hardware restrictions.

I think I should add an appendix for this post.


buy ammo somewhere else for a little more isk. Use a courier mission to pay someone else to assume the risk. Use something with a bigger thank than a badger to fly your stuff. The T2 transports can be much harder to kill before a concord response ends their attack.

There are ways to remove and/or minimize the risk. It's not a surprise to anyone that goes to Jita that it might be congested.

So. There's a risk. There are ways to get around the risk if you chose to. If you're unwilling to spend the extra time and/or isk to make it safer, then you've made your choice. It's what makes eve great.

Complaining about congestion on a busy stargate is no different than complaining about congestion on a busy free-way in real life. You either deal with it, and the risks that come along with it, or you pick a time with less congestion, or you pick a different route.

I think this is a feature, not a bug!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde