EVE General Discussion

Jump Freighters don't hold anywhere near 800k m3. A Rhea (biggest) at all V's is 367,969m3.

6,600,000 m3 / 367,969m3 = 17.9, so 18 trips, not 8. That's 288mil for the trips (and again, assuming a JF V freighter pilot with a Rhea). Your new monthly costs are now 646mil per month.

That's best case scenario cargo-wise with the best JF, which also sets the bar for nullsec industrialist to "must have personal JF", since nobody would ever in their right mind reliably ship multiple JF loads at cost for you.

I know this is only a tiny part of your numbers, but every assumption you've made in this thread is filled with ridiculous inaccuracies like this. You're way out of your depth and should just quit before Tippia and RubyPorto embarrass you even further than they already have.

Because... they gain another feature that would make having an equivalent cargohold overpowered?
Not to mention jump freighters have a lot more tank and are more agile than regular freighters.

That's why I said JF V, not all V. Either way, having the bar for being able to do industry in null at "have your own personal JF" is ludicrous enough without even having to haggle about fuel costs.



It's almost as if that thing people have been telling you about your idea being bad was true all this time!

It seems that they need to put stuff in Null that needs to be used in Null...i.e. too delicate to move unrefined, requires some radiation signature from a local sun, etc...

otherwise it's the Antartic bottled water aurguement:

"Yes we could bottle water melted from Antartic ice and charge a premium. But if it's still just plain water, no one will pay more regardless of how difficult is was for you to make."

You may be expecting that if you nerf hi-sec by say 15% you will be able to turn a 15% profit in null. That is not necessarily the case. You will be competing with the low cost producer which will be other places in null. I can totally see some areas of null where the space really sucks, and they have nothing else to do, or they are a very safe place to build, building huge quantities that dwarf most any other place. They will probably take their stuff to Jita too. Especially modules (which are small and light and are easily transported) and sell it for whatever they can get, which may be a 3-5% profit (a current common Jita profit) which is 10--12% below what they could build stuff for in hi-sec. Transport costs eat into that a bit too. Then you are left having to compete with those price levels which are almost as bad as what exists currently. The profits you expect to make to make the farms and fields scheme work may never materialize at all. You could well end up buying stuff from Jita, the same as before.

Roughly speaking, it may make you slightly more money overall, but mostly it will just shift where stuff is built, and not necessarily the profits. The same players might continue to build the same stuff, for almost the same profit, just in null (which is what you want). But you also don't get a farms and fields situation where you build stuff for where you live and are self sufficient and build your empire (which is not what you want), because people will bypass null and go directly to Jita where they can unload huge amounts of stuff or buy huge amounts of stuff.

This is just one thing that can go wrong with nerfing hi-sec. So talking about nerfing hi-sec to make null sec competitive may not make much sense at all because it might not accomplish anything except wrecking hi-sec industry and possibly handing industry over to a very few large producers, especially in large and strong coalitions. It could make industry suck more overall, be more unbalanced, and do damage to the game. Its hard to say exactly what prices will be because it is a dynamic system. But I think its safe to say nerfing hi-sec isn't a panacea.

So lets not talk about nerfing hi-sec because its not a very good idea.

That's not the case now where one dude with a bunch of alts control the market. Every time an opening in the market shows up, several people jump on that item and start producing it. The fastest guy often is able to unload his stock for a decent profit. The slower guys earn less and less as time goes on because competition is going up and up. Eventually the market clears the backlog and the process starts all over. At any time there can be dozens of players on a single item. One guy with a spread sheet does not control the market. It is spread far and wide among a large number of players. Your statement is false.

As I said, I'm pretty sure now the only way to improve nullsec industry viable is to encourage some way to keep it out in nullsec... at least with current jump freighter costs. when you stop and do the math, I'm not sure null sec CAN be viable without ruining high sec completely. In fact I'm pretty well convinced it can't without looking at the costs of operation first and foremost. Unless maybe there were some high value small volume items out there they could produce in large quantity. The numbers are pretty ugly... and a 25%-50% boost in prices across the board would not be good for the game, at least not for new players. Oh sure, the old ones could manage. Those who have made it to L4s could manage... but you'd make what is already a several month long path to that without PLEX a much longer process.

Though then that goes to the other issue... of why null sec industry can't really stay out in null sec right now... lack of people, and WHERE really can they sell it other than in places like sov null, where they're very limited anyways. No neutral party would ever want to try and bring a freighter of stuff into Goon territory, they'd just blow it to hell. Though I suppose there are ways to make goons producing things in large amounts for themselves viable. I can't really see it being viable for a small corp or independent groups though. I really can't. The kind of gap you'd have to create is pretty massive. A massive change in production value would do one of two things.

1) Reduce the price of minerals significantly - This would be a result of less demand for them due to the higher costs making it harder for industry to operate. This makes it harder for miners to replace their ships due to significantly less profit and puts them in a significantly difficult position.

2) Increase mineral prices significantly - The result of miners wanting a larger cut of the profit, causing them to raise their prices so they can more easily afford the increased cost of their ships. This forces the producers to raise their prices even further due to the higher material cost. This probably could repeat itself for a bit, though would find an area to stick around, but the result would be making life A LOT harder for anyone not an industrialist or miner.

Not to say that I'm not convinced that some kind of nerf/buff package could bolster the health a bit, but I'm absolutely convinced that the balance can't be focused on taking stuff from null into Jita short of stuff that can only be produced there, or largely produced there... perhaps I could see making T2 stuff harder in high sec since people getting T2 stuff could probably handle the extra cost, buuuut, from my understanding, no one group has significant control over all the materials needed for T2 production, do they? So that stuff ends up in high sec anyways out of necessity.. I mean, if I'm wrong, correct me, but whew... the benefit would have to account for what.. 3 extra jump freighter trips? Rather ugly number.

Increasing it a little bit is no problem. Increasing it a lot? Is massive inflation. Not to mention everyone else's income remains largely the same, so its a significant effect to non-industrials in general.

Nope. Cost increases != Inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

First sentence. I can bring up other sources if wiki isn't good enough. But when 3 seconds is all it takes to prove you wrong.. well...