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Winter Expansion balancing - The gallente frigate problem
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Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-10-27 12:04:54 UTC
Bomberlocks wrote:
I'm really looking forward to flying an Enyo that doesn't automatically lose to a wolf.


If the Enyo is the problem, surely that could be fixed by buffing the Enyo's PG and CPU not buffing all small blasters?
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#22 - 2011-10-27 12:05:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:

They get an increased inertia modifier, which leads to lower agility. The problem is that the data dump that is floating around is calling this attribute “agility”, which is rather contrary to what it actually does (even though it is, indeed, a large part of the agility calculation).

It's a clash of terminology, if you like. The game doesn't really have any concept of agility — just Mass × InertiaMod — and we as players have come to call the latter agility because… well… it's part of the formula for what we think of as agility, and mass is already mass. The problem with calling one thing something more familiar like this is that the thing in question does the opposite of what our chosen synonym usually conveys.


Just bumping for informational purpose.

Also, agility mods like i-stabs have negative "agility"/inertia modifier.

CCP, can we have a statement about the agility changes ? thx



0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 
Tristan North
The Scope
#23 - 2011-10-27 12:09:57 UTC
Incursus have 344 m/s max speed and less agility.
How can compete with a rifter that is faster, have more agility and range?
Gallente need more agility and less max speed, so it's easier to come close (agility-acceleration) but it's harder to not let the target escape. (less max speed)
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#24 - 2011-10-27 12:33:08 UTC
I'm confused about one thing:

What on earth could justify an agility nerf for Caldari ships. They don't get the max speed boost, and all Caldari railboats are essentially flying bricks with about damage dealing capability as an inflatable dingy. Oh, I know, let's make 'em even worse just to be on the safe side.

Aside from that, yeah the Ishkur and Taranis does not need a boost. But then I thought most people said small blasters were fine. As far as I've gathered, the biggest problem stems from large blasters. Medium blasters are a bit meh, I'll admit, but small ones seem okay'ish to me.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#25 - 2011-10-27 12:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoe Alarhun
Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering).

Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan).

EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-10-27 12:46:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Even if this leads to Gallante ships being the FoTM for a bit, I am relaxed about this. They've been in the wilderness for 4 years; let them warm their toes at the fire a while.

Gallente frigates have pretty much always been at or near the top of their respective piles, though; the Comet, Ishkur, and Taranis are all arguably best-in-class, and the Tristan's a very credible brawler (lousy tackler, though).
Tristan North
The Scope
#27 - 2011-10-27 12:56:09 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering).

Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan).

EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff.

It is an AGILITY NERF
The Tristan is even less fast/agile then the Incursus, also less dps/more tank.
How can it compete with a Rifter? Just adding 10 m/s?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#28 - 2011-10-27 13:00:28 UTC
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Use a tristan not a incursus if you compare Combat frigates. A tristan can take a rifter no problems (assuming equal sp and skill). A closer comparison would be a Breacher vs Incursus (looking at tiering).

Agility and speed are both getting buffed for gallente which will make the Tristan vs Rifter even better matchup (for the Tristan).

EDIT - no agility nerf, it's a agility buff.


Yes, Tristan is the ship that should be compared to the Rifter, but due to split weapon system the Tristan requires more SP to be competitive. But tbh, this is common for all good Gallente ships.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#29 - 2011-10-27 13:01:22 UTC
And what comes to the agility nerf/buff discussion, CCP most probably meant it as a buff, but derped.

.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#30 - 2011-10-27 13:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoe Alarhun
It already compete's with the rifter - go on my killboard right now and look (yes I'm new to pvp so I don't have a great win/loss, but I win more than I lose) and look at how many rifters I kill in my Tristan. It's not a bad ship at all - it already competes VERY well.

If you look in game there's no agility stat. They are improving IM, look at Tippia and many other's posts if you don't believe me.

It's got same slot layout as rifter.
It's got same tank.
It's marginally slower.
It has WAY higher damage output when fighting at frigate range, Auto's have larger damage on paper but they usually in fall off - if they come into their auto optimal you kill their faces off with overheated blasters, rockets and drone.

Above applies to Tristan. Incursus is alot more squishy if you don't fly the 400mm plater + 75mm railgun version. But then it's slow and has horrible handling - on the up side 5km optimal with antimatter is bad ass.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#31 - 2011-10-27 13:22:56 UTC
I didn't claim it would not compete as a ship, only that it does require more SP (skill points, stuff pilots have) than Rifter to achieve it's dps potential.

Anyway, this thread inspired me to pyfa a pretty nice looking frig fleet Tristan, so thanks :)

.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#32 - 2011-10-27 14:20:27 UTC
Tristan = bad ass ship. Sure you need to train T2 rockets, blasters and drones. It's amazingly good at applying DPS in a fight though - Rockets don't worry about tracking, you have a tracking bonus for your blasters and your drone can follow people around pretty easily.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#33 - 2011-10-27 15:31:34 UTC
There is already an easy counter: They all die terrible deaths due to neuts.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-10-27 17:02:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Even if this leads to Gallante ships being the FoTM for a bit, I am relaxed about this. They've been in the wilderness for 4 years; let them warm their toes at the fire a while.


This. It's been a LONG time since the first choice of ship on my roams wasn't matar. A change of pace would be refreshing at the very least.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#35 - 2011-10-27 18:08:31 UTC
I would say, let it ride, until more positive stats are known.

And, to be perfectly honest, after years of neglect, letting the Gallente have some ships (allbeit small ship) getting to do a little pwnage will be a nice change.

Nothing clever at this time.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-10-27 18:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
while your at it give the helios a 3rd utility high slot to bring it inline with the other 3 racial covert ops ships

the point of a covert ops ship is to 1. be cloaky 2. Probe out victims while cloaked and then 3. warp to victim and light a cyno on them

this is possible to do and all races's covert ops EXCEPT the gallente one. CCP please give the helios that 3rd high slot...

the reason why the helios has only 2 high slots is because originally the Maulis Hull (which has 3 high slots) was used to make a Helios but CCP later changed it to use the Imicus hull which only has two high slots

CCP forgot to add a third high slot hardpoint to the Imicus hull

But a utility high slot is all the Helios needs to bring it inline with the other covert ops ships... so a hard point is not actually needed.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-10-27 19:28:22 UTC
Thanks for all the responses.

To the many people that say that Gallente have not been FOTM for a while now its their turn: thank you for agreeing with my analysis.

My personal opinion is that we should be aiming for balance. Overbuffing gallente frigates such that they become FOTM will not deliver this.

To those in doubt, download the modified pyfa and give it a try.

pyfa with mods
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#38 - 2011-10-27 19:44:59 UTC
Truthfully, we really won't be able to judge this well until the come out on the test server to play with for awhile.

Stats often don't tell the whole story.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-10-31 16:57:30 UTC
Looks like its an agility buff then.

Source
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#40 - 2011-10-31 17:00:56 UTC
After reading the DEV blog, I think the Taranis might be a friggin nightmare to deal with once this goes live.
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