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Crime & Punishment

 
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Suspect RR Flagging Issue (broken mechanic with workaround)
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Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#1 - 2013-02-25 15:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Satar
Ok so a brief rundown.

I'm in a 2 man gang, we have a single RR fit in all of our our highs.

I jump into a gate camp, take full aggression from pirates/suspects, and then engage back. My gang mate then enters the fight, and begins to remote rep me. He then ends up going Suspect as a consequence which i think is because he is "interfering with a limited engagement"

Surely this is wrong? I'm being aggressed by -5 and below, and everyone who isn't has now gone suspect, my fleet should then be able to freely remote rep me against this. It is NOT a limited engagement just because i defend myself!

I'll petition this so it's seen by CCP but thought i'd get some comments on here....

EDIT: There is a glitch workaround where your corp members can set drones to assist you, and then be able to remote rep you without taking a suspect flag. The fact this work around exists only goes to prove the mechanic is broken.

To summarise, currently a gang of +sec corp members can jump into an outlaw gatecamp, be fully aggressed, but still somehow be the side who end up as suspects just for using RR on corp mates.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-02-25 15:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: culo duro
Nova Satar wrote:
Ok so a brief rundown.

I'm in a 2 man gang, we have a single RR fit in all of our our highs.

I jump into a gate camp, take full aggression from pirates/suspects, and then engage back. My gang mate then enters the fight, and begins to remote rep me. He then ends up going Suspect as a consequence which i think is because he is "interfering with a limited engagement"

Surely this is wrong? I'm being aggressed by -5 and below, and everyone who isn't has now gone suspect, my fleet should then be able to freely remote rep me against this. It is NOT a limited engagement just because i defend myself!

I'll petition this so it's seen by CCP but thought i'd get some comments on here....



If you were at war with this person you'd be correct.
However you're in a personal war with said person, which means your corp mate is a 'neutral' in that war. If you want it to be differently you'll have to have your RR engage your targets, so he joins the 'war'.

RR'ing raises a suspect flag if you're not in the engagement.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-02-25 16:01:47 UTC
If it didn't happen, you friend would be able to rep you and nobody, including the people you're fighting, would be able to shoot them.

What you're asking for is invincible logi.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#4 - 2013-02-25 16:24:42 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
If it didn't happen, you friend would be able to rep you and nobody, including the people you're fighting, would be able to shoot them.

What you're asking for is invincible logi.


No....

This is in low-sec. It's a gate camp, they are all pirates as mentioned. They engage freely regardless of suspect as it makes no difference to them. I have been agressed by OUTLAWS, yet when i receive reps, the repper goes suspect? The point of OUTLAWS is that they forego their security status and rights, we can engage them freely, so why can we not remote rep against them freely?

He should not go suspect for repping me against existing suspects or outlaws!

The fact it happens makes very little impact on the fight, apart from the fact any other passing neutrals will see us as Suspects when really we shouldnt be.
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#5 - 2013-02-25 22:30:18 UTC
The RR suspect timer is set to occur if repairing someone in the following situations:

The reps receiver is involved in an LE.
The reps receiver is at war and has an aggression timer. (Logi being out of corp/alliance)
The reps receiver is suspect.

It is not coded to identify who the reps receiver is shooting, and was purposefully programmed that if you engage a suspect and then receive reps, your logi would also go suspect. This was in large part due to the amount of complaining about neutral RR. Low sec, high sec, it doesn't matter. Logi in corp or out of it will go suspect if you have an LE and your safety is on yellow.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#6 - 2013-02-26 09:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Satar
Yeah and thats my point. I understand why it's happening, but i'm asking if this is a mistake in the system?

Getting attacked by an outlaw should not constitute a limited engagement, thus meaning any help you receive goes suspect. Why should somebody go suspect for aiding you against an outlaw? People seem to have forgotten what security status means. Security status defines what level of assistance you get from concord, the gate guns and the flagging system. An outlaw gets NO assistance and is a free target.

Long story short, The Limited Engagement system needs to just be removed when dealing with Outlaws or Suspects.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#7 - 2013-02-26 10:05:41 UTC
Tbh, it does seem a little silly to go suspect aiding a high security character against an Outlaw. That's less crimewatch and more GoodSamaritanwatch
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#8 - 2013-02-26 10:06:33 UTC
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#9 - 2013-02-26 10:11:46 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#10 - 2013-02-26 10:16:16 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....



Oh yeah I agree it is weird but that's Crimewatch for you
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-02-26 10:19:23 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....


Were you in combat with him when you started repping?

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#12 - 2013-02-26 10:27:20 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....


Were you in combat with him when you started repping?


Yeah, this isn't just one occasion by the way, i fight with outlaws all the time and the flag problem is becoming a pain.

I get attacked by outlaws, they go suspect, they take sentry fire, i then attack back... no flags for me. Then when my gang member puts an RR on me, he takes suspect flag. I'm now asking WHY is he going suspect for this?

If he interferes in a duel, yes.
If he reps me whilst i am suspect, yes.

But not when i'm getting attacked by outalws and simply defending myself. That is NOT a limited engagement, there is no mutual consent here, it's just self defence.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-02-26 10:30:32 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....


Were you in combat with him when you started repping?


Yeah, this isn't just one occasion by the way, i fight with outlaws all the time and the flag problem is becoming a pain.

I get attacked by outlaws, they go suspect, they take sentry fire, i then attack back... no flags for me. Then when my gang member puts an RR on me, he takes suspect flag. I'm now asking WHY is he going suspect for this?

If he interferes in a duel, yes.
If he reps me whilst i am suspect, yes.

But not when i'm getting attacked by outalws and simply defending myself. That is NOT a limited engagement, there is no mutual consent here, it's just self defence.


This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#14 - 2013-02-26 10:32:47 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....


Were you in combat with him when you started repping?


Yeah, this isn't just one occasion by the way, i fight with outlaws all the time and the flag problem is becoming a pain.

I get attacked by outlaws, they go suspect, they take sentry fire, i then attack back... no flags for me. Then when my gang member puts an RR on me, he takes suspect flag. I'm now asking WHY is he going suspect for this?

If he interferes in a duel, yes.
If he reps me whilst i am suspect, yes.

But not when i'm getting attacked by outalws and simply defending myself. That is NOT a limited engagement, there is no mutual consent here, it's just self defence.


This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


Exactly. Anybody from CCP looking at this care to comment?

It was noticed when my fleet mate had his safety on green. He could jump in and shoot back, but when he tried to rep me it wouldn't, and he needed to switch to yellow to get it done.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-02-26 10:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
BadAssMcKill wrote:
What if you shot the outlaw first? Limited Engagement means they can shoot back without taking gate guns etc


True enough, which means i think there must just be a fundamental flaw in it. I agree that if i engage an outlaw he should then be able to shoot back freely, but what i don't understand is that if outlaws attack others, people will go suspect for aiding them....


Were you in combat with him when you started repping?


Yeah, this isn't just one occasion by the way, i fight with outlaws all the time and the flag problem is becoming a pain.

I get attacked by outlaws, they go suspect, they take sentry fire, i then attack back... no flags for me. Then when my gang member puts an RR on me, he takes suspect flag. I'm now asking WHY is he going suspect for this?

If he interferes in a duel, yes.
If he reps me whilst i am suspect, yes.

But not when i'm getting attacked by outalws and simply defending myself. That is NOT a limited engagement, there is no mutual consent here, it's just self defence.


This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


No it's not.

His friend is assisting him in a limited engagement against others. He will go suspect as well. It does not matter that the other guys have gone suspect as well.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#16 - 2013-02-26 10:35:18 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
culo duro wrote:

This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


No it's not.

His friend is assisting him in a limited engagement against others. He will go suspect as well. It does not matter that the other guys have gone suspect as well.


The very fact it's a limited engagement is the bug.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-02-26 10:37:31 UTC
From another thread posted by Adriel

That is correct. The way Crimewatch 2.0 works, is that if anyone remotely assists (remote sebo, projected eccm, RR, etc) another player who:

A) Has a suspect timer
B) Is in a Limited Engagement
C) Is in a different corp and alliance than the RR ship, is at war, and has a PVP flag
D) Is an outlaw (in HS)

will gain a suspect flag (if set yellow), regardless of their own flagging at the time of rep.

If the RR assists someone who is set criminal, the RR ship will gain a criminal flag.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-26 10:38:44 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
culo duro wrote:

This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


No it's not.

His friend is assisting him in a limited engagement against others. He will go suspect as well. It does not matter that the other guys have gone suspect as well.


The very fact it's a limited engagement is the bug.


The limited engagement works as intended.
I might have to agree with canes logic.

But yeah

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-02-26 10:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Nova Satar wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
culo duro wrote:

This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


No it's not.

His friend is assisting him in a limited engagement against others. He will go suspect as well. It does not matter that the other guys have gone suspect as well.


The very fact it's a limited engagement is the bug.


if that is true then petition it.

I know it works that way so I don't see it as a bug. Fact of the matter is.... being remote RR should no longer be safe... EVER.

Unless using it against war targets and your rr guy is in the same corp as you none of this will happen.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-02-26 10:42:31 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Nova Satar wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
culo duro wrote:

This sounds like a bug.
It should definently put the 3 of you in a 'war together' if you're in the same corp/alliance and/or fleeted up.


No it's not.

His friend is assisting him in a limited engagement against others. He will go suspect as well. It does not matter that the other guys have gone suspect as well.


The very fact it's a limited engagement is the bug.


if that is true then petition it.

I know it works that way so I don't see it as a bug. Fact of the matter is.... being remote RR should no longer be safe... EVER.

Unless using it against war targets and your rr guy is in the same corp as you none of this will happen.


Let's DEC THE UNIVERSE!

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
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