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Make ECM non-racial?

Author
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#1 - 2013-02-25 01:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
*I am not a forum warrior here to argue EWAR balance. I think in general combat the racial EWAR types work well enough vs. each other, they all have their advantages and disadvantages. However ECM has a significant use outside of general combat and I would like to talk about the implications of that.

In the case where a non combatant ship is pointed by a close orbiting tackler the only way to rescue that ship from range is with ECM. I think this ability should be equally available to all racial ship types. Caldari EWAR could be replaced by some other type of damage mitigation, some good ideas were presented in this thread:

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=567959&page=1

It might also be interesting to give ECM to ORE ships. I'm sure the miners would love to have ECM bonuses and then all combat ships would still be on an even footing ECM wise.

But it seems unfair that falcon pilots have the chance to rescue tackled comrades and other EWAR ships do not.
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#2 - 2013-02-25 01:18:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
Every race has access to ECM, just like any other form of E-Warfare like Painters, Damps, Points, Webs, Scrams - even neuts.
It's just that each race has certain ships that are bonused towards it.

ECM on non-bonused ships can work with the right doctrine and teamwork. How effective that is however is another question, and would probably lead into a discussion of whether Caldari's bonuses to ECM are maybe a bit too heavy.

So the question is not about ECM itself, but rather how ECM compares to other methods of Electronic Warfare.
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#3 - 2013-02-25 01:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Weasel Juice wrote:
Every race has access to ECM, just like any other form of E-Warfare like Painters, Damps, Points, Webs, Scrams - even neuts.
It's just that each race has certain ships that are bonused towards it.

ECM on non-bonused ships can work with the right doctrine and teamwork. How effective that is however is another question, and would probably lead into a discussion of whether Caldari's bonuses to ECM are maybe a bit too heavy.

So the question is not about ECM itself, but rather how ECM compares to other methods of Electronic Warfare.


ECM stands apart because of its ability to break lock and allow pointed ships to escape. Its overall damage mitigation is pretty easypossible to calculate and balance Vs the other types of EWAR. So that leaves the ECM as facing more severe nerfs in combat to make up for its extra utility, which would just suck for Caldari EWAR pilots.

Whereas something like EWAR resist debuffing is singular in use and also easy to balance numerically Vs other racial EWAR.

imho ECM is just a little bit too different in utility and function to be able to balance V other types of EWAR, so why bother, take it right out of the racial profile and replace it with something that is easier to balance.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#4 - 2013-02-25 03:38:08 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Weasel Juice wrote:
Every race has access to ECM, just like any other form of E-Warfare like Painters, Damps, Points, Webs, Scrams - even neuts.
It's just that each race has certain ships that are bonused towards it.

ECM on non-bonused ships can work with the right doctrine and teamwork. How effective that is however is another question, and would probably lead into a discussion of whether Caldari's bonuses to ECM are maybe a bit too heavy.

So the question is not about ECM itself, but rather how ECM compares to other methods of Electronic Warfare.


ECM stands apart because of its ability to break lock and allow pointed ships to escape. Its overall damage mitigation is pretty easy to calculate and balance Vs the other types of EWAR. So that leaves the ECM as facing more severe nerfs in combat to make up for its extra utility, which would just suck for Caldari EWAR pilots.



more than just ecm can do this. Sensor damps can do the same thing. Why they are not used commonly you'd have to take up with the player base. I have known people who use them to good effect. harder to use than ecm, yes. But if used properly any swinging di.... in fleet gets 100% hit, 100% effect no questions asked. On non-bonused ships even.

And ecm despite all the rabble rabble is not going to change much. CCP has already opted to "power creep" as it were with the sensor boost skill. The power creep kind of being it has helped a few ships get that much more hard to probe. It hasn't brought back unprobable but I do know on one tengu fit I run for pve....you have to come correct or you aren't finding it worth a damn.

Train that to 5 and you fair better against low skill jammers. CCP also has other counter measures in place as well. If your fleet really wants to have more speed and opt for loki boosters over gallente offerings, well then enjoy that speed until you meet some ecm. Mods, tactics (I always plug my bring a sniper idea here....bring ships outside jam range to shoot them, make room for a cerb or 2 on the sr hac roam, they do this well), etc...ecm is not without its counters.


And the resist idea not even an option. We have a surge in the ccp hates armour tank and loves shield threads because of AAR and some not happy about its stats. Resists per level is a more common shield ship bonus than armour one. this be more fuel to that fire. As I have several caldari ships at 5 that rake in a 25% bonus an armour tanker generally does not. Resist ecm takes me down 15% to 10% bonus...I am still +10%. that -15% reduction on amarr has it -15% resist. With the added gripe that to counter they have to eat up more low slots or resist rig it. If AAR has people complaining, this would cause an uproar most likely.


Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#5 - 2013-02-25 04:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Zan Shiro wrote:

more than just ecm can do this. Sensor damps can do the same thing. Why they are not used commonly you'd have to take up with the player base. I have known people who use them to good effect. harder to use than ecm, yes. But if used properly any swinging di.... in fleet gets 100% hit, 100% effect no questions asked. On non-bonused ships even.

Damps are not going to break lock of a ship orbiting at 2km.

Zan Shiro wrote:

And ecm despite all the rabble rabble is not going to change much. CCP has already opted to "power creep" as it were with the sensor boost skill. The power creep kind of being it has helped a few ships get that much more hard to probe. It hasn't brought back unprobable but I do know on one tengu fit I run for pve....you have to come correct or you aren't finding it worth a damn.

Train that to 5 and you fair better against low skill jammers. CCP also has other counter measures in place as well. If your fleet really wants to have more speed and opt for loki boosters over gallente offerings, well then enjoy that speed until you meet some ecm. Mods, tactics (I always plug my bring a sniper idea here....bring ships outside jam range to shoot them, make room for a cerb or 2 on the sr hac roam, they do this well), etc...ecm is not without its counters.


The numbers on ECM are fine. It is the added utility of being the only EWAR able to break close tackle that makes it inappropriate for one race to have dominance in. That functionality should be evenly spread among all racial ship types.

Zan Shiro wrote:

And the resist idea not even an option. We have a surge in the ccp hates armour tank and loves shield threads because of AAR and some not happy about its stats. Resists per level is a more common shield ship bonus than armour one. this be more fuel to that fire. As I have several caldari ships at 5 that rake in a 25% bonus an armour tanker generally does not. Resist ecm takes me down 15% to 10% bonus...I am still +10%. that -15% reduction on amarr has it -15% resist. With the added gripe that to counter they have to eat up more low slots or resist rig it. If AAR has people complaining, this would cause an uproar most likely.


The crowd can wail and gnash all they want, the numbers for armor/shield are balanced. Those same numbers can also be balanced for resist debuff EWAR.

I'm not decrying ECM as being OP. As you point out there are counters to it; damps and snipers being among them. Rather it seems to me that all racial fleets should have the same ECM chance to rescue a tackled comrade.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#6 - 2013-02-25 11:44:30 UTC
Have you ever tried to orbit a ship a 2km? Simply bumping it would most likely break your lock in that case. Which with scan resolution dampening scripts can mean a good long time of re targeting.
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#7 - 2013-02-25 12:10:20 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
Have you ever tried to orbit a ship a 2km? Simply bumping it would most likely break your lock in that case. Which with scan resolution dampening scripts can mean a good long time of re targeting.


This forum is about the space ship game called "Eve Online" I think you want the "Tugboat" forum, that's a few channels over.

TL;DR What the heck are you talking about?
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#8 - 2013-02-25 12:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
Zan Shiro wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Weasel Juice wrote:
Every race has access to ECM, just like any other form of E-Warfare like Painters, Damps, Points, Webs, Scrams - even neuts.
It's just that each race has certain ships that are bonused towards it.

ECM on non-bonused ships can work with the right doctrine and teamwork. How effective that is however is another question, and would probably lead into a discussion of whether Caldari's bonuses to ECM are maybe a bit too heavy.

So the question is not about ECM itself, but rather how ECM compares to other methods of Electronic Warfare.


ECM stands apart because of its ability to break lock and allow pointed ships to escape. Its overall damage mitigation is pretty easy to calculate and balance Vs the other types of EWAR. So that leaves the ECM as facing more severe nerfs in combat to make up for its extra utility, which would just suck for Caldari EWAR pilots.



more than just ecm can do this. Sensor damps can do the same thing. Why they are not used commonly you'd have to take up with the player base. I have known people who use them to good effect. harder to use than ecm, yes. But if used properly any swinging di.... in fleet gets 100% hit, 100% effect no questions asked. On non-bonused ships even.

And ecm despite all the rabble rabble is not going to change much. CCP has already opted to "power creep" as it were with the sensor boost skill. The power creep kind of being it has helped a few ships get that much more hard to probe. It hasn't brought back unprobable but I do know on one tengu fit I run for pve....you have to come correct or you aren't finding it worth a damn.

Train that to 5 and you fair better against low skill jammers. CCP also has other counter measures in place as well. If your fleet really wants to have more speed and opt for loki boosters over gallente offerings, well then enjoy that speed until you meet some ecm. Mods, tactics (I always plug my bring a sniper idea here....bring ships outside jam range to shoot them, make room for a cerb or 2 on the sr hac roam, they do this well), etc...ecm is not without its counters.


And the resist idea not even an option. We have a surge in the ccp hates armour tank and loves shield threads because of AAR and some not happy about its stats. Resists per level is a more common shield ship bonus than armour one. this be more fuel to that fire. As I have several caldari ships at 5 that rake in a 25% bonus an armour tanker generally does not. Resist ecm takes me down 15% to 10% bonus...I am still +10%. that -15% reduction on amarr has it -15% resist. With the added gripe that to counter they have to eat up more low slots or resist rig it. If AAR has people complaining, this would cause an uproar most likely.




Nice conspiracy theory but unfortunately it does not hold true.

Not so long ago Armor hellcats (think Abaddons) were very popular in nullec blocks. But why are so many people flying Shield in 0.0?

4 reasons:
a) Instant shield reps. When alpha becomes a serious issue, you want your logistics repairs to start as soon as possible. By the time the Armor repairs cycle, ships often die already, while shields with almost instant reps have a higher chance of keeping stuff alive
b) Mobility. The ability to dictate range allows you to stay out of bubbles, while shooting those inside the bubbles. It allows you to fight on your terms, and more easily disengage from a losing fight, or possibly get into a better position.
c) Sheer damage. When you're looking at 200vs200 fights, extra damage is the easiest and most effective way to go currently. Much less painful that trying to get 200 people to spread their E-War module on anything BUT the primary.

In really small scale fights you have one additional point (That builds on the instant shield reps and mobility part): Ancillary Shield Booster.

But all of this has nothing to do with more shield bonused ships. Because when it comes to it, those extra ships with a shield bonus are almost never used in PvP, with the exception of the Scorpion maybe, but that usually sees a single 1600mm + Damage Control as its hole tank.
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#9 - 2013-02-25 12:24:31 UTC
Please don't turn this thread into a debate over shields v armor. The subject is non-racial ECM. I linked the thread about resist mod EWAR only because it popped up when I was researching ideas on EWAR.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#10 - 2013-02-25 15:19:25 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Please don't turn this thread into a debate over shields v armor. The subject is non-racial ECM. I linked the thread about resist mod EWAR only because it popped up when I was researching ideas on EWAR.



well if an alternative jsut pointing out its not ideal. you mentioned it as a replacement so it brings in that can of worms.



Quote:
I'm not decrying ECM as being OP. As you point out there are counters to it; damps and snipers being among them. Rather it seems to me that all racial fleets should have the same ECM chance to rescue a tackled comrade.


the thing is they can. I know many think you hop in falcon/scorp/widow and magic jsut happens. Their bonuses are nice, no doubt.

However a good jammer of the dreaded permajam/ longer range variety does not jsut train several electronics skills to 4 and says recon 4/5 is good enough. They rack up lots of elec. level 5 skills if they want to make sure the RNG gods favor them..

A Bunch of elec 4's on a multispec on an unbonused ship is gonna suck ass. Especially now with the sensor skills. TBH, multispecs are iffy even on the notorious jam rides imo.

Its also a matter of ftting. Your permjammers gimp the crap out of their fit. elec. rigs, boost mods lows. Average pvper not that dedicated to do this imo. Even now gunners don't even pack TD commonly. Some are waiting for it to affect missiles, some dream of this day hapening to teach that drake a lesson. But they don't run it now to counter current day gun boat threats.

One day they will teach that drake a lesson...and then they have to fight off his buddies in harbs. Why not get the practice of a potentially "gimped" td fight against a harb now.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-02-25 15:25:49 UTC
I'm not all too into changing ECM so I'll stay out of the debate this time.

Quote:
Damps are not going to break lock of a ship orbiting at 2km.


Damps are a bit of a special thing. While it doesn't break lock at close ranges, it can do the actual job of forcing your opponent closer. Just something to keep in mind.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#12 - 2013-02-25 15:47:34 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I'm not decrying ECM as being OP. As you point out there are counters to it; damps and snipers being among them. Rather it seems to me that all racial fleets should have the same ECM chance to rescue a tackled comrade.


the thing is they can. I know many think you hop in falcon/scorp/widow and magic jsut happens. Their bonuses are nice, no doubt.



How can any EWAR other than an ECM show up on grid and force a close orbiting tackle to break its lock?

I guess you could argue that a neut ship could do the same thing.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#13 - 2013-02-25 15:53:06 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I'm not decrying ECM as being OP. As you point out there are counters to it; damps and snipers being among them. Rather it seems to me that all racial fleets should have the same ECM chance to rescue a tackled comrade.


the thing is they can. I know many think you hop in falcon/scorp/widow and magic jsut happens. Their bonuses are nice, no doubt.



How can any EWAR other than an ECM show up on grid and force a close orbiting tackle to break its lock?

I guess you could argue that a neut ship could do the same thing.


You are nitpicking, sensordamps, tracking disruptors and neuts can be just as effective as ecm in some situations.

Just ask yourself: can ecm force your enemy to come closer, entering your optimal and leaving theirs? No? Well perhaps every race needs tracking disruptors and sensor damps too then!
Corey Fumimasa
The Organization of Thunder and Lightning
Space Quacks Alliance
#14 - 2013-02-25 16:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Akara Ito wrote:


You are nitpicking, sensordamps, tracking disruptors and neuts can be just as effective as ecm in some situations.

Just ask yourself: can ecm force your enemy to come closer, entering your optimal and leaving theirs? No? Well perhaps every race needs tracking disruptors and sensor damps too then!

It's not nitpicking. EWAR is balanced as far as I can see. I don't think any nerf buff needs to hapen to balance them vs one another in combat.

But if a friendly ship, say an Orca or a hulk, gets bumped and tackled by a rapier the only EWAR way to save that ship is with ECM. In this way ECM is different from all other EWAR.

This is a significant use/advantage outside of general combat and I think that it should be accounted for in racial ship balancing.