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C4 questions
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Mark Blema
#1 - 2013-02-25 02:23:37 UTC
Let me start by saying that I've lived in c2's and c3's for a while now. So I am not new to wh space.

With that out of the way, I think I want to live n a c4. So before I do that I would like to ask other wh vets what can I expect out of a c4 other than tougher sleepers. Please don't consider anything to small to mention. I open the thread up to you to discuss things like possible defense with the actual hole among other things possibly even use of bubbles near common warp to points.

As understand it c4's offer larger space size in au .... So possibly hiding out on the fring of the system??? Anyway go!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-02-25 02:43:54 UTC
I haven't noticed C4's being generally larger than any other class of WH. I have seen all classes of systems tiny (under 10au) to huge (over 100AU).

Yes Sleeper sites are harder.

The biggest difference is the isolation. C4's have no K-space statics. Additionally, as far as I have observed as well, they don't seem to get any random outgoing connections. So literally you seem to get your static, and they maybe random incoming k162's.

As a comparison, while C5's do not get a k-space static either, they do seem to get random K-space connections to at least nullsec and lowsec. (at least from what I have seen, maybe HS too).
Mark Blema
#3 - 2013-02-25 02:55:15 UTC
O.O Wwwwwhhhhaaaaaattttttttttt. Ok so I admit I haven't looked at everything outside of a few posts about c4 in the week or so I've been looking at them I didn't find out they had no k space exits.

This is big news to me, sorry if I sound like a noob right now. I Genualy did not know that.

So how do I garantee pos fuel each month. Since I know ice doesn't spawn in wh space... Sure pi can make up most of the fuel block... Where then do you get your isotopes? So much to ask and I don't know where to even start not.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-02-25 03:09:39 UTC
Well they do get statics to other WH space. So there are C4/C1, C2 etc.

So depending on what system you live in you have varying degrees of logistical difficulty.

So for example a C4/C3 (Popular for farming types) you will always have a static to a C3 system. C3's always have a k-space static, so you will always be one jump away from k-space. (0.0,LS,HS).

Where it gets harder are the C4,C5,C6 statics, for obvious reasons.

Logistics in those cases are generally going to be such that when you manage a decent route to empire, you get everyone online to help scout and haul in as much as you can.
Mark Blema
#5 - 2013-02-25 03:31:39 UTC
So the PvP must be next to non existent no random people able to get in easily. At least that's what I read. I literally have to relearn the logistics of fueling the pos now.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-02-25 06:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Mark Blema wrote:
So the PvP must be next to non existent no random people able to get in easily. At least that's what I read. I literally have to relearn the logistics of fueling the pos now.


That's not true. It really comes down to: Can you field a fleet capable to fighting in all situations, i.e. do you have the people, the ships and the expertise to fight any fleet you find? If that answer is yes then you belong in a C5 or C6. If that answer is no then you belong in a cap-less environment. In the cap-less environment where you have to choose your battles because you lack man-power and expertise then you're as likely to find a fight in a C4 as you are any other class of w-space system. There are C2's that static to C4's and they're popular and profitable systems.

If you're not able to field a fleet for all occasions then it doesn't really matter what class system you're in except in the higher level C5/6's you're more like to get rolled over.

For whatever reason, C4's have a bad reputation for pew. I don't find them any worse than any other system, TBH. There are days you'll find it and days you won't. That's true for a C1, 2, & 3 as well.

Don't ban me, bro!
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#7 - 2013-02-25 06:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Just wanted to say that if you live in a C4 with a C2 static you'll have ample opportunities to pew and more convenient logistics than you'd expect, because of C2s dual static, you often get branches to many other WHs as well as a minimum of 1 k-space exit always which in my experience is more than 50% of the time highsec (or at least the static will have another static which will have a HS)

Yes the C4 itself has quite low traffic, but that's good as you can farm your C4 for isk in peace while the C2s it connects to tends to be highly populated or lead to other WHs where you can try your luck at pew pew with all kinds of targets ranging from mostly daytrippers, locals running sites/mining/gas, however its kind of hard to get them to engage so I'd recommend a T3 cloaky for hunting, will help alot.

Edit//
Also I too have noticed the trend of C4s being massive systems, the one I live it can't be covered by dscan and thus needs constant scanning to check for wandering WHs as they can be more dangerous than usual
Rex Aparte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-02-25 13:35:51 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Just wanted to say that if you live in a C4 with a C2 static you'll have ample opportunities to pew and more convenient logistics than you'd expect, because of C2s dual static, you often get branches to many other WHs as well as a minimum of 1 k-space exit always which in my experience is more than 50% of the time highsec (or at least the static will have another static which will have a HS)

Yes the C4 itself has quite low traffic, but that's good as you can farm your C4 for isk in peace while the C2s it connects to tends to be highly populated or lead to other WHs where you can try your luck at pew pew with all kinds of targets ranging from mostly daytrippers, locals running sites/mining/gas, however its kind of hard to get them to engage so I'd recommend a T3 cloaky for hunting, will help alot.

Edit//
Also I too have noticed the trend of C4s being massive systems, the one I live it can't be covered by dscan and thus needs constant scanning to check for wandering WHs as they can be more dangerous than usual



First, stop giving out good secrets!

Secondly, why run a C2 anom in a drake and then come back in a harpy and only loot the wrecks, leaving perfectly good salvage? You pretty much ruined my morning yesterday.
AtomYcX
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-02-25 13:47:45 UTC
The discussion around the size of C4s relative to other wormhole systems piqued my interest so I did some digging into the static data - the mapSolarSystems table has a radius column, divide this by 149597870691 and you get the radius in AU (it's stored in KM).

It turns out C4 systems are pretty close to the averages, in fact they have slightly less larger systems than other classes of wormhole. C1 systems have the largest deviation from the averages, 6% less 0-19.9 AU systems and 6% more 20-39.9 AU systems. Overall the distribution of system sizes is pretty even.

Here's some graphs:

Solar System Radius Distribution by Wormhole Class
Solar System Radius Deviation from Averages by Wormhole Class

In case you were wondering, the award for smallest wormhole system jointly goes to J142918 (C2, 0.002 AU) and J142923 (C4, 0.002 AU), and the award for largest wormhole system goes to J142291 (C5, 142.3 AU). Interestingly there are 28 wormhole systems that are less than 0.01 AU across, these are the smallest systems in the universe and are some 850 times smaller than the next smallest system (0M-24X, 1.48 AU). Either that or it's an anomaly in the static data.
Mark Blema
#10 - 2013-02-25 14:10:39 UTC
System size doesn't mean much then if they are all near the average. Same tactics apply for PvP. From what I gather while I slept Logistics of keeping fuel in shouldn't be much of a crunch, outside of maybe planning a bit further ahead and possibly storing 3 or more months of fuel and more stront in case.

Have I missed anything?
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#11 - 2013-02-25 14:28:25 UTC
There is plenty of pew to be found if you live in a C4. You may have to look a little harder for it, but it's good practice to do that anyway. We lived quite happily in a C4 for a few years. We moved up eventually, but a C4 is a good place to get experience when you're new since you're going to run into people from all walks of w-space and it'll make you do a lot of scanning.

Derath Ellecon wrote:
As a comparison, while C5's do not get a k-space static either, they do seem to get random K-space connections to at least nullsec and lowsec. (at least from what I have seen, maybe HS too).


You get freighter-capable M555 connections to hisec in C5s.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#12 - 2013-02-25 14:28:39 UTC
Rex Aparte wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Just wanted to say that if you live in a C4 with a C2 static you'll have ample opportunities to pew and more convenient logistics than you'd expect, because of C2s dual static, you often get branches to many other WHs as well as a minimum of 1 k-space exit always which in my experience is more than 50% of the time highsec (or at least the static will have another static which will have a HS)

Yes the C4 itself has quite low traffic, but that's good as you can farm your C4 for isk in peace while the C2s it connects to tends to be highly populated or lead to other WHs where you can try your luck at pew pew with all kinds of targets ranging from mostly daytrippers, locals running sites/mining/gas, however its kind of hard to get them to engage so I'd recommend a T3 cloaky for hunting, will help alot.

Edit//
Also I too have noticed the trend of C4s being massive systems, the one I live it can't be covered by dscan and thus needs constant scanning to check for wandering WHs as they can be more dangerous than usual



First, stop giving out good secrets!

Secondly, why run a C2 anom in a drake and then come back in a harpy and only loot the wrecks, leaving perfectly good salvage? You pretty much ruined my morning yesterday.


Cause I figured someone might be hunting me and I'd rather be safe than bringing in a salvo ship when someone can easily blow me up and take my hard work for themselves which has sadly happened to me a couple times.

Besides, C2 income isn't very good and I just like trolling people and trying to get them to fight, but I'm still very new at pvp in WHs, I beared it up for a long time. I've gotten some good oppurtunities to gank unsuspecting barges/ventures but they always seem on the ball and leave before I get to them...really need to get an alt.
Cheesy Feet
The Hells Bells Club
#13 - 2013-02-25 14:37:30 UTC
Sounds like you're either going solo with alts or with a few mates.

If so and you are worried about being evicted go C4 with C4 static and without any WH bonuses. Keep your tower to a standard large Amarr or Miny (non faction) and well defended (either dickstar or deathstar).

Don't leave ships floating in shields, have just one CHA and SMA, keep the tower full of stront and fuel with 2-4 weeks fuel in reserve and you should be ok.

Basically you dont want to look like a target that is worth a corp spending time and effort blapping your tower
Rex Aparte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-02-25 15:02:31 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Rex Aparte wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Just wanted to say that if you live in a C4 with a C2 static you'll have ample opportunities to pew and more convenient logistics than you'd expect, because of C2s dual static, you often get branches to many other WHs as well as a minimum of 1 k-space exit always which in my experience is more than 50% of the time highsec (or at least the static will have another static which will have a HS)

Yes the C4 itself has quite low traffic, but that's good as you can farm your C4 for isk in peace while the C2s it connects to tends to be highly populated or lead to other WHs where you can try your luck at pew pew with all kinds of targets ranging from mostly daytrippers, locals running sites/mining/gas, however its kind of hard to get them to engage so I'd recommend a T3 cloaky for hunting, will help alot.

Edit//
Also I too have noticed the trend of C4s being massive systems, the one I live it can't be covered by dscan and thus needs constant scanning to check for wandering WHs as they can be more dangerous than usual



First, stop giving out good secrets!

Secondly, why run a C2 anom in a drake and then come back in a harpy and only loot the wrecks, leaving perfectly good salvage? You pretty much ruined my morning yesterday.


Cause I figured someone might be hunting me and I'd rather be safe than bringing in a salvo ship when someone can easily blow me up and take my hard work for themselves which has sadly happened to me a couple times.

Besides, C2 income isn't very good and I just like trolling people and trying to get them to fight, but I'm still very new at pvp in WHs, I beared it up for a long time. I've gotten some good oppurtunities to gank unsuspecting barges/ventures but they always seem on the ball and leave before I get to them...really need to get an alt.


Well, if we ever run into you again, I'll convo you, maybe we can set up a gud fite.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#15 - 2013-02-25 23:56:33 UTC
Rex Aparte wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Rex Aparte wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Just wanted to say that if you live in a C4 with a C2 static you'll have ample opportunities to pew and more convenient logistics than you'd expect, because of C2s dual static, you often get branches to many other WHs as well as a minimum of 1 k-space exit always which in my experience is more than 50% of the time highsec (or at least the static will have another static which will have a HS)

Yes the C4 itself has quite low traffic, but that's good as you can farm your C4 for isk in peace while the C2s it connects to tends to be highly populated or lead to other WHs where you can try your luck at pew pew with all kinds of targets ranging from mostly daytrippers, locals running sites/mining/gas, however its kind of hard to get them to engage so I'd recommend a T3 cloaky for hunting, will help alot.

Edit//
Also I too have noticed the trend of C4s being massive systems, the one I live it can't be covered by dscan and thus needs constant scanning to check for wandering WHs as they can be more dangerous than usual



First, stop giving out good secrets!

Secondly, why run a C2 anom in a drake and then come back in a harpy and only loot the wrecks, leaving perfectly good salvage? You pretty much ruined my morning yesterday.


Cause I figured someone might be hunting me and I'd rather be safe than bringing in a salvo ship when someone can easily blow me up and take my hard work for themselves which has sadly happened to me a couple times.

Besides, C2 income isn't very good and I just like trolling people and trying to get them to fight, but I'm still very new at pvp in WHs, I beared it up for a long time. I've gotten some good oppurtunities to gank unsuspecting barges/ventures but they always seem on the ball and leave before I get to them...really need to get an alt.


Well, if we ever run into you again, I'll convo you, maybe we can set up a gud fite.


Sounds good :)
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-02-26 23:14:00 UTC
Cheesy Feet wrote:
Sounds like you're either going solo with alts or with a few mates.

If so and you are worried about being evicted go C4 with C4 static and without any WH bonuses. Keep your tower to a standard large Amarr or Miny (non faction) and well defended (either dickstar or deathstar).

Don't leave ships floating in shields, have just one CHA and SMA, keep the tower full of stront and fuel with 2-4 weeks fuel in reserve and you should be ok.

Basically you dont want to look like a target that is worth a corp spending time and effort blapping your tower


WH bonus' can be an advantage. Black Holes, for instance, noone likes them. Why? Because of decreased targeting range and inertial modifier. Use that to your POS's advantage which is not affected by WH modifiers and also the fact that people don't like farming them. However, if one know's what they're doing the range penalty when farming isn't really a factor.

Don't ban me, bro!
Spheranzinne
Color of Violence
#17 - 2013-02-27 07:29:55 UTC
AtomYcX wrote:
The discussion around the size of C4s relative to other wormhole systems piqued my interest so I did some digging into the static data - the mapSolarSystems table has a radius column, divide this by 149597870691 and you get the radius in AU (it's stored in KM).

It turns out C4 systems are pretty close to the averages, in fact they have slightly less larger systems than other classes of wormhole. C1 systems have the largest deviation from the averages, 6% less 0-19.9 AU systems and 6% more 20-39.9 AU systems. Overall the distribution of system sizes is pretty even.

Here's some graphs:

Solar System Radius Distribution by Wormhole Class
Solar System Radius Deviation from Averages by Wormhole Class

In case you were wondering, the award for smallest wormhole system jointly goes to J142918 (C2, 0.002 AU) and J142923 (C4, 0.002 AU), and the award for largest wormhole system goes to J142291 (C5, 142.3 AU). Interestingly there are 28 wormhole systems that are less than 0.01 AU across, these are the smallest systems in the universe and are some 850 times smaller than the next smallest system (0M-24X, 1.48 AU). Either that or it's an anomaly in the static data.


this is very nice info. should go in the sticky wh guide, its wasted here.