These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why the new voting system CCP?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-02-24 20:44:40 UTC
Alavaria wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
21,000 out of 350k or so?

Why are you worried, you outnumber us.

Silly.
You would think that EVE is a game about working with other people.

Except in high sec were it's a game about crying like a damn brat in an effort to get your way.

If people in high sec gave a ****, they'd ******* organize and vote, but god forbid you put in EFFORT.
Just more high sec mentality.

Give us what we want, we're special and shouldn't have to work together to achieve anything.

Er, well, we don't like to put in EFFORT either. Especially when it comes to voting. Sure we PRESS BUTAN FOR GREAT JUSTICE. But how do "we" decide which butan to press?

The political commissars tell us who will best forward our interests and we then push the butan they tell us to.

at least you know what to do: listen and press butan. good.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-02-24 20:47:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So well done CCP, I look forward to the nerfing of high sec starting with the May release.

Considering it's been getting closer to being a perfectly safe themepark since beta I highly doubt this CSM is somehow going to change that, unfortunately.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#103 - 2013-02-24 20:49:59 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I have asked for null sec industry to be improved, it's not a crime.

Industry is a no faucet, social feature.

Sorry if thinking linear does not suit you.


First off, this doesn't even make sense. It is literally nonsense.

You were talking about how you made lemonade from lemons, when in fact you've bitched and moaned about nullsec industry and left your nullsec groups because they didn't respect your useless industrial contribution.

It just shows you have zero credibility, and will argue anything irrespective of consistency or coherence because you have serious personality issues.

Basically, just stop talking because you've just added another point on a long list of why no one should listen to you.


I left my null sec groups because I got a more demanding job.

I *did* feel useless and that's why I asked for industry to be improved enough that even average null sec corps would want industrialists.

The rest of your "text" makes no sense.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tesal
#104 - 2013-02-24 20:52:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I have been there before you and like before me there have been a decade of other guys.

We dealt with it.
Good for you. It doesn't make it any less broken, nor does it take it off CCP's list of things that are slated for a massive overhaul and fix. It most certainly doesn't make it balanced, and it will be nice to see it moving in the right direction.


Being broken is a matter of perspective. For most of EvE history your "Farms and Fields" movement didn't even exist. In the past people complained about other things like dyspro moons. CCP changed moons and tech took over as the biggest source of moon income, wiping out the income for most of null and eliminating one of the biggest conflict drivers. It was a disaster.

Now you want to change industry and are stacking the CSM with your allies who will speak with an almost singular voice to nerf hi-sec. The problem with this is that history shows what can happen when you make a big change and that change isn't balanced right. You don't have all the answers. From what I can see it would be a very negative change for hi-sec, and a boon for null. You have no idea what the full effects of that will be. You can only guess. I think its a foolhardy proposition to mess with the game like this.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#105 - 2013-02-24 20:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Same level would mean putting moons in hi sec, 10/10 anoms and similar in hi sec and a plethora of other features, including bubbles Twisted
It would if they had any impact on the availability and cost of S&I slots. Fortunately, they don't, so it doesn't.


So you are eating your "competing at same level", I got it. If it's same level then it has to be same for real.


Tippia wrote:
Non sequitur, and it doesn't remove the increased demand anyway. If it pays poorly, people won't do it; if it does, people will. More people building stuff in null does not mean that market logic and behaviour is suddenly drastically altered or removed.


It is sequitur since there have been *already* threads of null sec people complaining their stuff is cheap like it was made in hi sec, and this is before lowering the null sec hinderances and costs. Once those are gone, we are going to see Zydrine at below Nocxium.


Tippia wrote:

…and no-one is really listening to those guys. What everyone who's actually engaged in the debate are suggesting is just plain old balance as a first step — same costs and same availability, and then we can use the margin created to start buffing null to compensate for the inherent risks and difficulties that come from working out there. Of course, there is a real risk that some of that can't be compensated for without raising the baseline even further, but those are the breaks.


This comes from the flawed yet common perception that more risk should equal to more reward.
It's *as* flawed as the examples you always make to show people complaining that they can't ISK tank / they can't buy victory by paying more. ISK is not an argument for balance, you said it.
Only linear games like themeparks would linearly risk and reward like that, EvE is a game of finding the gold nuggets in a sea of worse choices and compromises, not of knowing the Right Canned Path to get to End Game.

What's missing for sure, is a number of unique null sec perks and features to make it much more appetible (this is separate from the industry buff that should still be applied too). Those perks and features would have to be studied to not grant instant-Scrooge richness but convenience, comfort and similar.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2013-02-24 21:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So you are eating your "competing at same level", I got it.
You you don't understand what I'm talking about. Industrialists competing at the same level has nothing to do with moons or bubbles or anomalies. None of those affect the cost or availability of slots.

Quote:
It is sequitur since there have been *already* threads of null sec people complaining their stuff is cheap like it was made in hi sec, and this is before lowering the null sec hinderances and costs. Once those are gone, we are going to see Zydrine at below Nocxium.
…assuming people will just mine more in spite of it not being worth their time, which does not follow. So no.

Quote:
This comes from the flawed yet common perception that more risk should equal to more reward.
It is a core design concept of the game, after all. If you want to call that flawed, then take it up with CCP. It is part of why the whole revamp is coming, after all… It has nothing to do with end-games or “right paths” — it has to do with making effort be worth it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#107 - 2013-02-24 21:08:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You you don't understand what I'm talking about. Industrialists competing at the same level has nothing to do with moons or bubbles or anomalies. None of those affect the cost or availability of slots.


You can't just pick up one feature without the context though and in your first post you were not restricting your domain to industrialists, where I agree there'd need to do a lot of improvement.

Tippia wrote:
…assuming people will just mine more in spite of it not being worth their time, which does not follow. So no.


GD threads have shown that apparently null sec miners complain about profitability exactly like their colleagues in hi sec, while still not stopping doing it like their colleagues in hi sec.
Apparently warping to null does not magically instill a better brain and heightened financial senses. Blink


Tippia wrote:

It is a core design concept of the game, after all. If you want to call that flawed, then take it up with CCP. It is part of why the whole revamp is coming, after all…


That's up to you to demonstrate. So far EvE has been very consistent at giving null sec some things and not others, and other secs other things and not theirs, imposing choices.

If you would go beyond a null sec industry tune up (i.e. adding slots etc.) and would also buff it, then the choice would stop being there, it'd be a logical, min maxed path enticing everybody to just go there with no second thought.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#108 - 2013-02-24 21:23:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You can't just pick up one feature without the context though and in your first post you were not restricting your domain to industrialists
…except that it's all I've been talking about.

Quote:
That's up to you to demonstrate.
How do mission rewards scale depending on the environment?
How do complexes develop depending on the environment?
How does ship availability scale depending on the environment?
How do incursions scale depending on the environment?
How does w-space access scale depending on the environment?

Less inherent security → more player freedom → better stuff to play with.

The only thing that doesn't follow the pattern is industry.

Quote:
If you would go beyond a null sec industry tune up (i.e. adding slots etc.) and would also buff it, then the choice would stop being there
So you're saying that it's not a choice to run 1/10s rather than 10/10s or fly Vexors rather than Nyxes?
If everyone is enticed to go there, then great!
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#109 - 2013-02-24 21:26:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
It is sequitur since there have been *already* threads of null sec people complaining their stuff is cheap like it was made in hi sec, and this is before lowering the null sec hinderances and costs. Once those are gone, we are going to see Zydrine at below Nocxium.
…assuming people will just mine more in spite of it not being worth their time, which does not follow. So no.


People mined Omber when it was the least valuable ore. Some people mine the rocks in the proportions they require to build their free spaceships.

Just be aware that "worth your time" means different things to different people.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#110 - 2013-02-24 21:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:
…except that it's all I've been talking about.


The remaining "list of things that are slated for a massive overhaul and fix." seem to hint to more to come.


Tippia wrote:
How do mission rewards scale depending on the environment?
How do complexes develop depending on the environment?
How does ship availability scale depending on the environment?
How do incursions scale depending on the environment?
How does w-space access scale depending on the environment?

Less inherent security → more player freedom → better stuff to play with.

The only thing that doesn't follow the pattern is industry.


Considering I agree on industry, I want to thank you for saying what I wanted to see.

Because this is what I'll link the next time the same GS guys create the umpteenth thread exactly about these things and how "better stuff to play with" to them means farm hi sec NPCs, seen as the flawless cornucopia.


Tippia wrote:
So you're saying that it's not a choice to run 1/10s rather than 10/10s or fly Vexors rather than Nyxes?
If everyone is enticed to go there, then great!


You say "enticed", many ask for "make it so obvious you'll be forced to go there".
You say "enticed", may demand enough nerfs on high sec (and low sec too, as they got perfect refine and so many slots) so that not going there is going to cripple the gameplay.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2013-02-24 21:56:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The remaining "list of things that are slated for a massive overhaul and fix." seem to hint to more to come.
…and those are things CCP are talking about, not me. Please keep the two apart.

Quote:
Considering I agree on industry, I want to thank you for saying what I wanted to see.
So you agree then, that greater reward coming with greater risk is not a flawed perception, but actually an intended design in the game. Goodie.

Quote:
Because this is what I'll link the next time the same GS guys create the umpteenth thread exactly about these things and how "better stuff to play with" to them means farm hi sec NPCs, seen as the flawless cornucopia.
What on earth are you on about?

Quote:
You say "enticed", many ask for "make it so obvious you'll be forced to go there".
You say "enticed", may demand enough nerfs on high sec (and low sec too, as they got perfect refine and so many slots) so that not going there is going to cripple the gameplay.
…and again, no-one is listening to those guys, and the actual discussion on the topic is about creating a margin for highsec that other areas can use to be “better“ within.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#112 - 2013-02-24 22:08:32 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Quite a few people have posted in blogs the dangers of the new voting process CCP is implementing, which cater precisely to the large, organized null sec blocs.

Assuming that 4000 votes is the magic number to get on the CSM (it is actually much, much less in the last 4 or 5 spots), we are faced with the real possibility that null sec will place 10-12 of the 14 slots, with wormholes placing 1-2, low sec maybe 1, and high sec shut out.

Test and goons total 21,000 chars, which translates to between 10 and 15,000 accounts.
Now add on all their alt accounts.
Now tack on all the other alliances within HBC and CFC.
Now tack on all the other alliances' alt accounts.

We are faced with an organized voting bloc of, best guess, 25,000 - 40,000 accounts.
( I know one guy in PL who has 7 accounts, and I don't think he is an aberration.)

Given that these guys will distribute a list of 14 candidates, in the precise order that they should be voted on, it is a lock that the first 7 of the first 10 spots are filled with precisely who they want.

Wormholes guys are likely organized enough to get their primary candidate in the top 7.
Low sec, I have no idea how organized how they are, but I can't imagine they will get more than one.

High sec, we all know, is not nearly organized enough to pull off getting even one person in the top position on the voting list of 4000 voters. Eve UNi has roughly 2000 potential votes, but not sure if they are even endorsing anyone since Kelduum is not running.

So well done CCP, I look forward to the nerfing of high sec starting with the May release.

By December I expect to see :
Perfect refine no longer possible in high sec.
Superveld and superscordite in null sec destroying the value of high sec mining.
Incursion income reduced by 75%.
Mission income halved (on top of the devastation that occurred with the AI and TD changes in Dec.
T2 manufacturing removed from high sec
Manufacturing slots at high sec stations severely curtailed or completely removed. Not that it will matter much.

These are all ideas proposed by various null sec zealots within the last 6 months on the forums and with their podcasts on Crossing Zebras, and the last one has been proposed by both soundwave and greyscale. It appears with a virtually unanimous voice on the CSM, many, if not all of these proposals will be pushed hard at CCP by the CSM.

Why CCP, are you moving to a voting system that caters to the massive voting blocs in null?


You mistake the CSM for a group with any actual power.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2013-02-24 22:22:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So well done CCP, I look forward to the nerfing of high sec starting with the May release.


To be honest, it simply doesn't matter who is voted in. Even if a brigade of the usual "i-hate-hi-seccers" vocal individuals get into the CSM, even if they manage to convince CCP to cut its nose to spite its face for a brief grin of "victory" against the playstyle they hate with a passion, even if they manage to desintigrate hi sec, I guarantee you the changes would not last long.

I'd dare wager the majority of players aren't interested in CSM voting, election, or even protecting their playstyles through this "political process". Nonetheless, they still hold the Ace. Make it uncomfortable enough for them and they quietly take their subscription money else where.

Don't fear the vocal minority. Fear the silent majority. Because these guys aren't on the forums making noise, threatening to quit for the umpteenth time. They actually will take their money elsewhere.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-02-24 22:30:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

By December I expect to see :
Perfect refine no longer possible in high sec.
Superveld and superscordite in null sec destroying the value of high sec mining.
Incursion income reduced by 75%.
Mission income halved (on top of the devastation that occurred with the AI and TD changes in Dec.
T2 manufacturing removed from high sec
Manufacturing slots at high sec stations severely curtailed or completely removed. Not that it will matter much.


The bolded stuff is the good stuff. Move mission income from mainly isk injection to mainly LP. Only allow a perfect refine if the highsec people choose to use a POS with refineries. Only allow T2 manufacturing to be done in POS or upgraded stations, npc stations aren't considered upgraded. Reduce overall NPC capabilities, that means all types of slots, and move more capabilities over to POS.

It's basically a shift away from being NPC focused and more towards being player focused. You can whine all you want about no longer being able to plex your account AFK in highsec and scream that you'll quit. No one cares, like the miner's said to the gankers after the barge buff, adapt or die.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tesal
#115 - 2013-02-24 22:37:01 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

By December I expect to see :
Perfect refine no longer possible in high sec.
Superveld and superscordite in null sec destroying the value of high sec mining.
Incursion income reduced by 75%.
Mission income halved (on top of the devastation that occurred with the AI and TD changes in Dec.
T2 manufacturing removed from high sec
Manufacturing slots at high sec stations severely curtailed or completely removed. Not that it will matter much.


The bolded stuff is the good stuff. Move mission income from mainly isk injection to mainly LP. Only allow a perfect refine if the highsec people choose to use a POS with refineries. Only allow T2 manufacturing to be done in POS or upgraded stations, npc stations aren't considered upgraded. Reduce overall NPC capabilities, that means all types of slots, and move more capabilities over to POS.

It's basically a shift away from being NPC focused and more towards being player focused. You can whine all you want about no longer being able to plex your account AFK in highsec and scream that you'll quit. No one cares, like the miner's said to the gankers after the barge buff, adapt or die.


I don't think CCP will go nearly as far as you want them to. Its too big a risk. Especially all done at once.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-02-25 00:04:37 UTC
Tesal wrote:

I don't think ...


I found your problemBig smile

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-02-25 02:31:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If it was broken then it'd be empty like low sec used to be for many years.
…which it is. The only things really being produced are the things that have to be produced out there because it can't be done anywhere else. Beyond that, it's utterly deserted.
Pretty much. It's kind of like this: Ocean Zones vs Security Status
What many of you might not know about the majority of the ocean is that aside from the trenches, all life below about 1km depth subsists entirely on the detritus and corpses of surface dwellers drifting through the depths, or the occasional lost surface-dweller that swam too deep. There are no plants down there, and nothing there "lives off the land".

I think that's a pretty good comparison with lowsec. Perhaps the reason these highseccers are confused about this is that they are told that lowsec is deserted, but they go through lowsec and see people in local. They're misunderstanding what we mean by deserted, I think.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tesal
#118 - 2013-02-25 04:00:04 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Tesal wrote:

I don't think ...


I found your problemBig smile


I irked a Goon. Success.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#119 - 2013-02-25 04:04:41 UTC
OP, and others, are under the assumption that CSM's matter.

Bravo CCP. Bravo.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-02-25 04:31:30 UTC
Nerf highsec, that is all.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133