EVE General Discussion

1) People aren't asking it to be the same, they're asking for it to be better in null sec. Which is fine, if done through only nerfing? I already described the damage done but you insist on ignoring it.

2) Show me the numbers if you want to claim they've already been run. Otherwise, clam it.

3) You can't say the only way would be legal exploits without running the numbers. Even then you couldn't. Efficiency and speed is just a much a buff or even more of one than reduced cost can be. If one can make a 100 products to someone's 90, guess who has the larger potential profit? HMMMM

I said resources. Not final products. I was very clear on that. I'm no miner or industrialist, but from my little understanding there were resources in null like Mercoxit that hi-sec doesn't have access to. Also what about technium? These resources still make their way into Jita somehow which those hi-sec industrialist seems to be making massive profits of somehow. Why are you competing on products that need resources that isn't available to people in Hi-Sec?



Great job on argument refutation.

In other words, you are having an entirely different conversation than the rest of it. Or, to put it in another way:





(Oh, and Tech is not Null sec exclusive. Neither are high end minerals. Just FYI.)

Aren, could you please read the Industry and Economy section of
http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry?

You seem not to understand how lacking in industrial facilities nullsec is at present.

1) Product availability. Just ask Wal-Mart, that's the BASIS of their profits... being able to sell a lot more product at a lower margin.

2) You're not taking into account the additional profit you gain from having more product being produced. Using your numbers, if you're producing 150 products to someone else's 100, you're making money at a 50% faster rate, assuming you get it all through safely.

3) Well then, you know the area where to NOT to touch efficiency. One of many.

The problem is that:

Perfect BPO × 0.9 material cost → 1 item produced + 10% materials left over → 1 item that can be refined for 100% base materials + 10% left-over materials = I just created 10% more minerals out of nowhere.

Granted, using ye olde 425mm rails, it'll only be about 1500m³ worth of minerals produced per hour per production line, but that still means that I can passively create 15k m³ minerals an hour 24/7 without ever sullying my hands with a mining laser.

Sure. TBH, that's probably one of the better options on the table.

It kind of breaks refining though. Which is better than an infinite mineral faucet, but not exactly great. It also requires that low end mineral procurement in Nullsec be radically improved.

You're the one proposing "speed up manufacturing in Nullsec" as your solution. There are exactly 2 ways to measure that:
1) It effectively multiplies the number of lines availible in Nullsec in proportion to the multiplier. (Which is still trying to compete with unlimited using not-unlimited.)
2) It effectively saves the Nullsec industrialist 24k ISK/hr/line (assuming a 50% multiplier).

Pick one. Or show a good justification why you have a third option and explain what it is. Be specific and show your work.


Now, consider the fact that HS has effectively unlimited slots (Sunday afternoon, and a 9hr wait for a slot in Jita), while Nullsec does not, and you can see how "compete on volume" is a bullshit suggestion. Especially since you don't actually get volume discounts on shipping (which Nullsec has to do twice to take its products to market) because of the whole item volumes haven't changed thing.

When I've shown that your suggestion doesn't work, that's not "refusing to accept" it. That's it simply not being viable. If you disagree, show how your suggestion would actually make Nullsec industry viable. You keep asking for numbers, present some of your own.

Ah, so the enormous material faucet option. (Remember, your premise is that you can do this without nerfing HS. Slapping a big ole' material penalty on HS fails your premise).

When I can spend a month manufacturing 2 jumps outside of Jita without seeing a queue, there is no effective limit on HS manufacturing capacity.

There is not a limit. Each additional job simply costs 24k isk/hr/slot. PLEX and characters are a commodity, just like Labor IRL. If you need more, you buy more.

One character with 50% boost = 2 without it. That second one just costs 24k isk/hr/slot (call it 72k if we just use one character slot per account. It's still less than POS fuel.), and there's no really feasible way to increase the number of slots availible in Nullsec to even come close to matching what is currently availible in HS (Itamo's 550 manufacturing slots [3 from Jita] are more than most, if not all, Nullsec regions), so the nullsec industrialist cannot simply keep adding characters the way the HS one can. That's why it's still about HS and Nullsec with multiple characters. Because industrialists understand arithmetic and the fact that PLEX is a freely traded commodity (oh, and running 2 characters at 1.0 speed is less effort than 1 character at .5 speed because long builds are easier to time to match your schedule.). And HS industrialists can make use of those facts in a manner that nullsec industrialists cannot.

We shouldn't factor multi-accounting into game design because...