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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW STILL BROKEN?
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2013-02-24 15:00:21 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
veshta... old timer? if i remember right pie only entered fw in farmville 1.0 i dont think being in FW for less than a year u can consider urself an old timer tbh... u speak of attacking done in t1 fit frigs well defensives can be done in unfit frigs and the reward is not that much different . Do u even play the game ur talking about?

Check your facts again, then feel free to bash your head on the keyboard.

As far as FW goes, there is probably only 4-5 people with same/more time under their belts and/or better knowledge of the thing .. so perhaps old-timer was the wrong term, should have used Sage, Wiseman, Prophet or maybe The Second Coming .. but since I traditionally opt for the understatement (most of the time) I chose to go with old-timer.

PS: Defensive LP is 0.75 times the contested level, so with an average contested level of say 50% you are getting 67.5% less LP than an attacker .. so you see "not that much different" is a rather poor description.

Now scurry off troll and let the grown-ups talk.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#122 - 2013-02-24 21:12:43 UTC
I do know my facts mate i was in minnie mil when u guys joined yes u was tied to amarr roleplay reasons looool but never militia till then.

ss far as FW goes, there is probably only 4-5 people with same/more time under their belts and/or better knowledge of the thing .. so perhaps old-timer was the wrong term, should have used Sage, Wiseman, Prophet or maybe The Second Coming <<<<< lol blow ur own trumpet much?

How do u think ur the grand master with such little time in militia?

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#123 - 2013-02-24 21:30:33 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
The current system is ok.

However I am not 100% sure about timer roll backs.

I use the timer to make plexing uneconomical for farmers in my home system. I'll run it almost all the way up and leave - making novices 19min if they wanna run it. They don't bother 99% of the time. The timer is a great defensive tool.

I also use the timers to deny income near DT. I'll chase the farmer out and run until 1min more is left on it then there is until DT and then I can leave the plex knowing it won't be capped in time.

Surprising how many farmers come back and sit in the plex without realizing they have wasted their time and capping it is not possible before DT.





I agree this is a good tactic that should not be ruined. What do you think about the idea that the timer rollback or some automatic count back of or a minute or 2 would only happen if an enemy or a neutral is on grid with you or the accel gate?

The problem isn't really that people leave a plex before it runs. The problem is people run when pvpers show up.




I think I would prefer no roll back and a kill bonus on the timer.
Example:
If a Caldari gets an enemy or neutral kill in a plex the timer jumps in the killers favor by maybe 2 min with a maximum 6min of bonus being possible in a novice.

Incremental possible timer bonuses as plexs get larger so that 3 or 4 kills in a plex = 60% time off running it. If the kills all happen in the last 60% of the timer - it just closes as you have 'won' the plex via pvp.


That way defending the plex by PvPing is rewarded but not so exploitable you can just close plexes with alts.
Naturally rookie ships, shuttles or ships with more than 1 empty slot being killed should not effect the timer at all.

Or -

Base the bonus on isk killed - maybe 2 min per 10 mil killed in a novice (based on Jita averages)
So unfit alts ships will do nothing if people decide to try and exploit the system - It would be easy to make it cost more to exploit then the LP reward would total.



EDIT:
I missed stuff.

Some will always run - The trick is not to chase anyone in useless systems.

However in the systems the PvPers live in they will defend.

Plex in Eha, Oicx, Vlil, Nenn etc and you will get pvpers who are willing to both defend and attack.

Yeah 90% of local will be docked up farmers but the Justified Chaos or Villore Accords guys will come once the farmers cry for help and try to drive you out.

Sotf pilots - is the currently circulating rumor true?
If you don't know what I'm talking about - I guess it's not true. If you do - good chance it is.
Yes or No answer is fine.


Atrons, Condors, Executioners, etc. Considerably more popular ships than before, but still very cheap to build.

I build 100 of them in bulk for a pittance in mineral prices. I then build 100 sets of guns, 100 sets of ammo for the hell of it, and all the plain meta zero T1 items needed to fully fit it.

I then march my alt into the plexes I want to close and kill it repeatedly until I gain a massive bonus to the timer. And LP for the kill, and for closing the plex. I then purchase loads of items with my LP and sell them and send some of that isk I just made to cover the expense of the high-end minerals, and repeat that who process when my alt runs out of ships.

Also, it will help inflate my kill-board stats, for those who give a damn about that.

Sadly, while a worthy idea, I can't see this proposal working in any meaningful way.



Yeah that's the big problem. Fully T1 fits would still be exploitable for profit.

There are very simple solutions to beat that exploit but as someone else said - CPP won't do it.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2013-02-25 00:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Kill-bonus on plexes that have a payout attached will inevitably be abused to kingdom come, so it is little wonder that it hasn't been mentioned even once by anyone within CCP. We players are just too good at finding the holes in CCP's plans/code Lol

The auto-timer on the other hand has no such weaknesses. Will never be able to go further than 'neutral' and has to be activated by an enemy .. the only casualty of the concept is the venerable speed-bumping which is hardly ever used so not a big loss.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
...How do u think ur the grand master with such little time in militia?

PIE Inc. entered into her majesty's service to hold to the line against Shakorite aggression on the day war was declared in June, 2008.
I entered into the service of PIE Inc., and by extension that of her magnificence, a few days after that. Which means my time and thus experience with FW and all it entails is more than four times that of your entire life-span.

So let me reiterate: Back under your bridge you foul beast!

PS: What you fail to comprehend (and what is probably the cause of your confusion) is that PIE Inc., being an honourable, decent and vehemenently anti-exploitation bunch, sat out the worst/first six months of that staggeringly broken first attempt at "iterating" on FW that spawned what is now lovingly known as FarmWars ..
PPS: Since you are replying after being specifically asked to check your facts, I feel obliged to tell you that you absolutely suck at fact finding.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#125 - 2013-02-25 15:25:39 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
I do know my facts mate i was in minnie mil when u guys joined yes u was tied to amarr roleplay reasons looool but never militia till then.

ss far as FW goes, there is probably only 4-5 people with same/more time under their belts and/or better knowledge of the thing .. so perhaps old-timer was the wrong term, should have used Sage, Wiseman, Prophet or maybe The Second Coming <<<<< lol blow ur own trumpet much?

How do u think ur the grand master with such little time in militia?


/o\

Even more ignorance from those who support the carebear race now known as faction war.

Really I would think after you were corrected for posting misinformation the first time, you might actually check the facts. They aren't that hard to check.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#126 - 2013-02-25 15:33:07 UTC
Super Chair wrote:

If the other side doesn't show up it will always be PvE, regardless of the mechanics. This is true in nullsec (structure grinding) and in FW (plex grinding). Oddly enough, players provide the PvP content, not mechanics. EvE is not a theme park that hands you fun, you have to make it yourself. It's not CCPs fault if players decide they don't want to fight you....



This is like blaming the players for using kinetic hardeners when they do gurista missions. The players decide to use them because the mechanics are such that using them is how they most rationally and effectively achieve their objective.

The faction war mechanics are such that if you want to capture the most plexes you don't pvp. Thats the way the game is designed whether intended or not. Oddly enough players continue to play the game rationally and effectively based on the mechanics.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#127 - 2013-02-25 16:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
But we're showing up for fights and we're getting them - by fighting for plexes. JUSTK KB
And we're not the only ones. These guys are doing it better. QCATS

What was that about being the "Carebear Race"? And yes, every time you overstate your case, we'll respond.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#128 - 2013-02-25 16:51:04 UTC
Cearain wrote:

The faction war mechanics are such that if you want to capture the most plexes you don't pvp. Thats the way the game is designed whether intended or not. Oddly enough players continue to play the game rationally and effectively based on the mechanics.


Even though this is true, it is also true that so far nobody has provided any idea which forces people to PVP for plexing without resulting in a blob-fest. I am open for ideas.

So far FW-Plexing has the benefit that it puts you at much higher risk of PVP then any other PVE activity in this game.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#129 - 2013-02-25 17:07:16 UTC
Don't you know XG , those kills don't count. Only gudfites™ count man.

X Gallentius wrote:
But we're showing up for fights and we're getting them - by fighting for plexes. JUSTK KB
And we're not the only ones. These guys are doing it better. QCATS

What was that about being the "Carebear Race"? And yes, every time you overstate your case, we'll respond.

nom nom
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-02-25 18:36:21 UTC
Meditril wrote:

So far FW-Plexing has the benefit that it puts you at much higher risk of PVP then any other PVE activity in this game.


And the other important fact is that its a PVE activity you can do while entirely fitted for PVP.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#131 - 2013-02-25 19:52:24 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The faction war mechanics are such that if you want to capture the most plexes you don't pvp. Thats the way the game is designed whether intended or not. Oddly enough players continue to play the game rationally and effectively based on the mechanics.


Even though this is true, it is also true that so far nobody has provided any idea which forces people to PVP for plexing without resulting in a blob-fest. I am open for ideas.

So far FW-Plexing has the benefit that it puts you at much higher risk of PVP then any other PVE activity in this game.



At least you acknowledge the truth in what I said.

As to your other points, no one forces people to use kinetic hardeners in guristas missions either. Rather the game design naturally leads to that sort of fits. Just like the FW sov game design naturally leads to the top plexers flying the fits we see them in.

Yes there have been suggestions to change the design such that plexing would be not be most efficiently done carebear style. Basic obvious ideas like letting enemy players know where plexes are being taken, are met with opposition as vehement as it is irrational. You can find any number of threads relating to the problems of fw being a carebear game (since fw first came out) to see this.

So in the meantime we can all enjoy the carebear race called fw sov.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#132 - 2013-02-25 19:56:03 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Don't you know XG , those kills don't count. Only gudfites™ count man.

X Gallentius wrote:
But we're showing up for fights and we're getting them - by fighting for plexes. JUSTK KB
And we're not the only ones. These guys are doing it better. QCATS

What was that about being the "Carebear Race"? And yes, every time you overstate your case, we'll respond.




Don't you know Princess, killboards, have almost nothing to do with vp. If you want to see how to win the sov war link the top vp gainers for the day and look at their killboards for that day.

My killboard has as much to do with fw sov, as those killboards and I am not even in fw.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#133 - 2013-02-25 20:30:13 UTC
Sorry but that's just plain wrong.

If not for those killboards, the VP totals for every day would look very different. Don't you get that?

Cearain wrote:



Don't you know Princess, killboards, have almost nothing to do with vp. If you want to see how to win the sov war link the top vp gainers for the day and look at their killboards for that day.

My killboard has as much to do with fw sov, as those killboards and I am not even in fw.


And no, that's how you win the "I got more LP then you war", it has very little to do with sov. Do you think a system being on the edge of vulnerable for 5 weeks, being farmed down to 95% then back to 110% (or whatever the max is) every single day has anything at all to do with sov?

nom nom
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#134 - 2013-02-25 20:41:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:
killboards have almost nothing to do with vp.


I'd say there's a very distinct correlation between the number of war targets we kill near our home and the number of plexes that aren't run there.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#135 - 2013-02-25 20:45:53 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Yes there have been suggestions to change the design such that plexing would be not be most efficiently done carebear style. Basic obvious ideas like letting enemy players know where plexes are being taken,





Boom and there it is back to his beloved notification..... have u not wondered why NOONE From any race has said that this is a good idea

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#136 - 2013-02-25 20:51:38 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:


Boom and there it is back to his beloved notification..... have u not wondered why NOONE From any race has said that this is a good idea



I'd like to see FW complex timers system-wide, like RF timers.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#137 - 2013-02-25 21:04:29 UTC
nice idea jaf but he doesnt mean that he wants a message everytime a plex is open telling him when and were

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2013-02-25 21:15:49 UTC
JAF Anders wrote:
I'd like to see FW complex timers system-wide, like RF timers.

Apart from a visual representation (more clutter Sad) it wouldn't really add anything .. with the ease of directional scanning it takes all of ten seconds to find out which plexes are occupied. If you want to also show which side is on the button then I'd lobby against it on the basis of it removing the last tattered remains of risk/scouting from the plexing game.

Add a simple "recent change" column to the milita interface list of systems with a '+X/-Y % contested the last hour' .. any more and there is nothing left for us to do than press F1-F8.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#139 - 2013-02-25 21:40:32 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
JAF Anders wrote:
I'd like to see FW complex timers system-wide, like RF timers.

Apart from a visual representation (more clutter Sad) it wouldn't really add anything .. with the ease of directional scanning it takes all of ten seconds to find out which plexes are occupied. If you want to also show which side is on the button then I'd lobby against it on the basis of it removing the last tattered remains of risk/scouting from the plexing game.

Add a simple "recent change" column to the milita interface list of systems with a '+X/-Y % contested the last hour' .. any more and there is nothing left for us to do than press F1-F8.


It appeals to my intuition. I haven't prepared a logical argument to defend my case. I find no fault with your position, though I disagree with some of your phrasing. I suppose if I had to throw something worthwhile into the ring, I'd say that system-wide timers could facilitate more fights by informing another side how much time they have to get a gang together before the plex closes. In any case, I default to your suggestion that game content ought be as player-intensive as practical.

I've had my fill of Features and Ideas discussion; could we get back to talking about killing? Blink

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#140 - 2013-02-26 01:15:32 UTC
JAF Anders wrote:
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:


Boom and there it is back to his beloved notification..... have u not wondered why NOONE From any race has said that this is a good idea



I'd like to see FW complex timers system-wide, like RF timers.


@JAF Anders
Yep.
It makes sense to let the players know where they can fight in plexes -- if you want it to be pvp.

@ALUCARD
More ignorance. It was actually one of the better supported ideas regarding specific fw mechanics going into inferno. Now that plexing is farmville and not just for pvp we see there is more resistance in the fw crowd to make it pvp. Those in fw are changing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815