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CSM notes on faucets & sinks
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Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#181 - 2013-02-17 09:10:06 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
Isk Sink: Name change & employment history wiped when buying character - cost 2 plex (destroyed)

re-invent yourself literally.


Ink Sink... economy rage.. non monocle... using isk not plex


sweet u figured it all out, now get em to bloody implement already!

Thread needs more monocles, only ruby looks distinguished enough amongst these wallflowers.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#182 - 2013-02-18 06:17:52 UTC
Candy Oshea wrote:
Thread needs more monocles, only ruby looks distinguished enough amongst these wallflowers.


I noticed that I had made enough just from flipping Monocles in Jita to buy one. So I thought it fitting to keep one for myself.

Plus, it does look nice.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#183 - 2013-02-18 06:23:11 UTC
This coat > a monocle. Sorry.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#184 - 2013-02-18 06:24:39 UTC
corestwo wrote:
This coat > a monocle. Sorry.


For some reason, that coat reminds me of the Cloak of Baulderan icon from Baldur's Gate 1.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-02-18 06:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Mikhael Taron wrote:

Paradoxically increasing the supply of minerals due to mining becoming far more worthwhile than before. The faucet merely changed shape.

Yes, this is why trit is worth 6 isk/unit and other low ends are similarly more expensive. Because, you know, the supply is larger. That's how supply and demand works, right guys? Supply more of it and the price goes up?

Roll

Mikhael Taron wrote:

Stay on topic, which is managing the amount of isk in the economy. I (still) realise you are blindly defending your cashflow, but manufactured goods don't inflate; the cash supply does. All this noise you're creating is a poorly executed attempt to obscure this.

You've got to have a reason for the amount of isk in the economy to actually matter; normally that's the price of goods and services. In other words, it is on topic.

Mikhael Taron wrote:

... as long as none of them interfere with your cashflow?

Still putting words into my mouth, I see. Can you explain why you think players in nullsec should be forced only to mine and build for their income again? You sort of ignored that one. Here, let me quote it for you again.

mynnna wrote:
For the record? I'm not trying to "halt any discussion on blah blah blah whatever drivel you spat out." You'd have gotten a much better response if you'd come in and said "You know, bounties contribute a lot of the faucet and nullsec likely is a big part of it, maybe we could replace some or all of the isk they produce with some other way to reward players for killing them" instead of dropping in with the implication that nullsec was the sole source of the faucet and man those whiny brats should all be forced to just mine or build for their money whether they like to or not.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#186 - 2013-02-22 17:08:41 UTC
mynnna wrote:

Yes, this is why trit is worth 6 isk/unit and other low ends are similarly more expensive. Because, you know, the supply is larger. That's how supply and demand works, right guys? Supply more of it and the price goes up?

Roll


As we're discussing the inflation of the economy it would make sense that the usual reduction in the price is negated by the increase in the amount of isk, reducing its value and therefore keeping prices up. Sarcasm not one of your strengths, obviously.

ho-hum wrote:

You've got to have a reason for the amount of isk in the economy to actually matter; normally that's the price of goods and services. In other words, it is on topic.

Writing paragraphs about manufacturing and goods was another attempt to divert the topic from the supply of isk, caused by over-enthusiastic faucets. Not on topic at all.

Mikhael Taron wrote:

... as long as none of them interfere with your cashflow?

blah blah wrote:

Still putting words into my mouth, I see. Can you explain why you think players in nullsec should be forced only to mine and build for their income again? You sort of ignored that one. Here, let me quote it for you again.

whiny brat wrote:
man those whiny brats should all be forced to just mine or build for their money whether they like to or not.


I didn't say that at all. I said turn off the artificial supplies of isk; the anomolies that appear magically due to infrastructure being deployed.

As for putting words into mouths ... priceless! I still submit that it makes no sense concord paying out bounties to players in nulsec, especially in the player-owned nulsec. You pay out the bounties, if that's what you want. Make your own economy instead of piggy-backing off empire space. That will reduce the amount of isk in the game, in a big way.

It will put a strain on the blue doughnut as resources will become a bone of contention. Not enough ice fields where you are? Go and take one from the opposition. Now THAT'S why most wars are fought and you ARE into PvP aren't you?

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#187 - 2013-02-22 17:16:33 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:
mynnna wrote:

Yes, this is why trit is worth 6 isk/unit and other low ends are similarly more expensive. Because, you know, the supply is larger. That's how supply and demand works, right guys? Supply more of it and the price goes up?Roll
As we're discussing the inflation of the economy it would make sense that the usual reduction in the price is negated by the increase in the amount of isk, reducing its value and therefore keeping prices up. Sarcasm not one of your strengths, obviously.


Which is why Zydrine and Megacyte are also double what they were a year ago... oh, wait...

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andres Talas
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#188 - 2013-02-23 06:06:15 UTC
Mikhael Taron wrote:


I didn't say that at all. I said turn off the artificial supplies of isk; the anomolies that appear magically due to infrastructure being deployed.

As for putting words into mouths ... priceless! I still submit that it makes no sense concord paying out bounties to players in nulsec, especially in the player-owned nulsec. You pay out the bounties, if that's what you want. Make your own economy instead of piggy-backing off empire space. That will reduce the amount of isk in the game, in a big way.

It will put a strain on the blue doughnut as resources will become a bone of contention. Not enough ice fields where you are? Go and take one from the opposition. Now THAT'S why most wars are fought and you ARE into PvP aren't you?


Anomalies appearing are like mission agents who have an unlimited quantities of missions, but this is EvE - an actual harsh and cruel universe would have Agents advertise for bids to take their jobs, and if someone else quotes less than you do to kill those blood raiders, well, they get the contracts.

Nerfing nullsec income will run into this rumour that Ive heard that many nullsec players earn their money in alts in hisec ! Such shenanigans ! That they use out-of-alliance alts to quietly earn, while blowing stuff up in null !

Personally, I agree that Concord shouldnt pay bounties in Null - but I'd balance it by having meta 3 and 4 gear, and certain needed salvage, only being spawned off rats in losec, nullsec and NPC null, and have various LP tokens drop.

The theme should be 'Empire produces low end materials and isk, Null produces high end materials and high end stuff and losec produces the weird and unusual'.

But yeah, theres too many iski faucets and not enough isk sinks ... and theres a number of fine Nullsec entity accounts around, and you'll see that the actual existing nullsec isk faucets just arent that enthusiastic.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#189 - 2013-02-23 06:58:30 UTC
Andres Talas wrote:
Anomalies appearing are like mission agents who have an unlimited quantities of missions, but this is EvE - an actual harsh and cruel universe would have Agents advertise for bids to take their jobs, and if someone else quotes less than you do to kill those blood raiders, well, they get the contracts.


Interestingly, unlike Mission agents, are quite limited. The carrying capacity (number of players who can make competitive incomes) of one system is about 10 (and I'm pushing here) using Anomalies.

How many people are running missions concurrently out of Umokka?


As for what happens in lawless space, did you know that the US placed bounties effective on people residing outside of the US for most of the early 1800s, and effective on places that were not under effective US control for most of the rest of the 1800s. Why should CONCORD care where the criminals get caught, so long as they're caught?

Anyway, that's my little RP justification on why Bounties on Nullsec rats make sense.
My real justification is that it almost certainly works better to have a similar primary isk faucet in every locale than to have ISK faucets monopolized by one or more locales. (HS has Missions, Nullsec has Anoms, WH has Blue Loot, and LS gets ****** [or maybe L5s, but I think that the LP probably sinks more ISK than the payment, and most of the income dropped by rats is in tags rather than ISK fauceting bounties, but whatever]).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#190 - 2013-02-24 07:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#191 - 2013-02-24 09:01:41 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that Happens is the coal company gets 995TPH instead of 1000TPH


*Fixed*

& lol.

inb4 monocle overlords

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-02-24 15:08:40 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...


That's a civil engineer. When a mechanical engineer stuffs up it's a 787 dreamliner or a ford pinto or something like that.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#193 - 2013-02-24 15:10:35 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...


That's a civil engineer. When a mechanical engineer stuffs up it's a 787 dreamliner or a ford pinto or something like that.


The Pinto was a wonderfully designed....



....bomb.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2013-02-24 15:13:39 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...


That's a civil engineer. When a mechanical engineer stuffs up it's a 787 dreamliner or a ford pinto or something like that.


The Pinto was a wonderfully designed....



....bomb.


Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. Lol

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-02-25 03:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Debra Tao
Zappity wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...



2008's crisis was a financial one Twisted
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#196 - 2013-02-25 04:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
mynnna wrote:
Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. Lol


You mean electrical, not mechanical. ( At least in Australia, anything with a circuit in it, or automation goes to electrical, not things like pistons, actuators for flop gate chutes etc, we do that)

Australia is only Mines where u find all disciplines, OR buildings, but i don't like dealing with architects. (not alot else, we dont have major automation, or anything like that here, its all bought, designed from overseas)

The Mechanical Or "materials handling" engineering team drives the entire design of the mining project, the other disciplines, support our equipment, plug in our equipment, design their super-structures around the equipment. etc etc.

"this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with an accountant" is actually a daily annoyance for me, the Team leader (Accountant) for a project i did a while back, went cheap on all the machinery & none of it worked. When we tried to explain why, he didn't understand, and dismissed it, "we have saved money, the machines only vary slightly" they ended up replacing 3/4 of the machines, the team leader got sacked.

Me trying to explain why to him, was you guys trying to explain complex economics to me (isk sinks lol)

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#197 - 2013-02-25 05:24:08 UTC
Oh dear, getting terribly confused by all the engineers now. I'm a biological engineer so that probably explains it. :)

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-02-25 15:35:17 UTC
Candy Oshea wrote:


Me trying to explain why to him, was you guys trying to explain complex economics to me (isk sinks lol)



Shocked
GoatChops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#199 - 2013-02-26 00:05:42 UTC
This thread was an excellent read and really helped me understand a few things I had never really considered.

Not being the sharpest tool in the shed I took the following away from it:

1. An ISK faucet is defined as ISK changing hand from NPCs to players
2. An ISK sink is defined as ISK changing hands from a players to NPCs
3. Contrary to what I believed ship losses in PvP are NOT a direct ISK sink because the actual "ISK"exist in the ship sellers wallet somewhere
4. The speed that ISK changes hands between players or its "Velocity" (combined with more Faucets then sinks) is what causes ISK inflation (?)


Is that largely correct? Is there another key point somewhere I am missing? (Just trying to understand inflation really)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#200 - 2013-02-26 00:58:21 UTC
GoatChops wrote:

4. The speed that ISK changes hands between players or its "Velocity" (combined with more Faucets then sinks) is what causes ISK inflation (?)


Is that largely correct? Is there another key point somewhere I am missing? (Just trying to understand inflation really)


Inflation is more complicated than that.

My understanding is:
Velocity is one part, but the balance between ISK faucets and sinks also plays a role. And of course, ISK inflation is affected by/affects Mudflation (materials inflation) because ISK doesn't quite behave like a real currency (basically because, unlike the real world, individuals can create it).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon