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Bandwidth on the wibbly wobbly entanglement device.

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Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#1 - 2013-02-22 05:13:54 UTC
So according to the articles, FTL communication is handled by a Quantum entanglement system, you have a material, do SCIENCE to it and then you have a quantum spin on one particle which spins its counterpart in the opposite direction. Thinking about it, what kind of bandwidth do we have on this system?

We have two examples of its usage, one for communications of text, which can be measured in KiloBits per second (Kb/s), and the other being the transmission of a human mind on the event of a pods destruction/ breach / playing silly buggers with self podding to move around. Now the Human brain has no currently known storage capacity, because we barely understand how the human brain embeds memories into long term memory in the first place. However, we can take a stab at it for the sake of Internet Hypothesising ™.

Using the number of neurons as roughly a billion (10^9), each of which connects to roughly another thousand of the other neurons (10^3). This leads ultimately to an estimate of a Human brain having a storage space of 2.5PetaBytes. So there we are, the upper bandwidth would be how much it takes to shunt that data to the clone, which would be a 20Petabit connection if it takes a second and the logs show it.

And however (that's my new favourite word by the way) this would be highly inefficient as a data management system. The most likely way would be considerably beneath this upper boundary, as a Partial File Copying system used, where only the chunks of data that change are used to be rebroadcast back. The image of a kitten with a cute caption, is memorable and adorable. Odds are it was remembered in the backup, and the only thing that would be send back would be thoughts relating to, and built on that thought that was laid down into long term memory as opposed to the original image. Problem is, that memories change every time we access them. Odds are you spotted my handsome mug when you opened this thread, in the mean time you have read this, considered the words and will remember the mugshot slightly differently as the new information changes what you see of it.

Heres a Basketball game to illustrate it.

tl;dr

Human brains are big, and the data accessing is volatile.

So, that's my thought process to aim at the Devs, how much bandwidth can you squeeze through those wibbly wobbly entanglement things? I'm guessing that its low enough that its not worthwhile simply making supercomputer grids on planets and offloading a ships processor to that so it can fit more gear. Unless the CPU on a ship already took this into account as standard practice and the CPU available was the bandwidth available to send/receive offloaded processing.

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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-22 14:01:45 UTC
According to the science article fluid routers can handle bandwidth in range of bytes/second, hence why it's limited to text mostly. What does puzzle me, is the point about brainscan transmission, which is definitely enormous amount of data yet is transmitted in a matter of seconds...

By the way, your number of neuron interconnections might be off by a few factors of 10. And long-term memory isn't solely based on interconnections, chemicals are also largely involved in the process.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#3 - 2013-02-22 14:54:09 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:


By the way, your number of neuron interconnections might be off by a few factors of 10. And long-term memory isn't solely based on interconnections, chemicals are also largely involved in the process.


Which just serves to push the upper boundary higher, I'm getting my data from an article in Scientific American here here. Its something I've only started reading on in the last few days but its fascinating. Based on that article I think either technology advanced rapidly or its a plothole. The description of the destructive scan seems to indicate it takes place as a "snapshot" implying its measured in milliseconds or microseconds, shunting the nessecary bandwidth up by orders of magnitude further.

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Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#4 - 2013-02-23 08:28:38 UTC
With the "Partial File Copying" you're kind of describing Incremental Backup or the reconstruction of "interframes" in an MPG video file. It could definitely save some bandwidth (hopefully losslessly), but would pretty much require us to have "soft clones" (which the devs have been real "tip-toey" about: especially with the removal of references to soft clones from wiki lore portal: 1 (old version of article), 2).

As far as the entanglement system goes... The way the PF describes it, it's a very scalable technology. For more bandwidth you just slap on more and more devices. All the data would be transmitted in Packets and decrypted at the routing facility. So the bigger your ship, the higher the potential bandwidth. "Clearly" the tech can be miniaturized enough to fit enough to send a brain scan into a 4m tall pod.... along with a warp drive, thrusters, and life support system.

The "offloading" of processor power to planetary facilities is a nice idea. There are a number of "issues" with it involving Relativity and Simultaneity (which I try to touch on in this story). All in all, it's at least as viable as anything else in PF (which typically completely ignores relativity).
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-02-23 09:01:23 UTC
Still that amount of bandwidth would require an enormous amount of routers if they're only capable of x bytes/second, there must be some other solution to this problem...
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2013-02-23 17:39:19 UTC
Just remember that X is a variable and 10000000000000000000 could still conceivably be the number that goes there. Not saying that's actually what the variable is or what the actual bandwidth of these things would be. Just think, there are 2.71 x 10^26 hydrogen atoms in a single pound of hydrogen. So there's a lot of atoms to create bandwidth to go around.

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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-02-26 15:18:35 UTC
plus, you don't necessarily need to transmit the whole brain. Certain structures are basically standard and are known to have absolutely nothing to do with recall or personality.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#8 - 2013-02-26 16:59:53 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Just remember that X is a variable and 10000000000000000000 could still conceivably be the number that goes there. Not saying that's actually what the variable is or what the actual bandwidth of these things would be. Just think, there are 2.71 x 10^26 hydrogen atoms in a single pound of hydrogen. So there's a lot of atoms to create bandwidth to go around.

But then this begs the question, if this level of bandwidth exists, why is my Capsule in my ship, thats really dangerous if the instantaneous FTL bandwidth exists for me to operate the ship in 0.0 from my cozy Capsuleer quarters in Kisogo.

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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-02-26 17:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Huge bandwidth =/= unlimited data transmission. There's a limit on how much data a given fluid router can transmit before all the quantum entanglements decay and leave it as basically just a useless bag full of regular atoms. Transmitting text, and even audio or visual, uses up hardly any of that limit. Transmitting all the information of a brain controlling the ship, on the other hand, would chew that limit up in seconds.

Think of it like your Internet connection - you may have crazy amazing awesome bandwidth and tiny ping times, but the ISP might still be restricting you to only 40Gb download allowance per month.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Sonkut
Catsoup Empire
#10 - 2013-03-01 14:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonkut
You may want to consider this from a standard modern day technology perspective, then add si-fi to it. Modern servers store a metric crap tonne (yes that’s a technical description) of data. Yes, the brain holds Considerably more but, when a modern server backs up, does it backup everything at once? No. not most of the time anyhow. What it does it take one big backup, followed by snapshots of just what changed.

So if you consider when you buy your clone for instance, that it takes one large backup while you’re there in station with a higher bandwidth, then every day your pod would “update” the changes and progression in your brain, meaning when you get blown up, all the pod needs to do is send of an emergency “erg, oh no, blam!” backup of the last couple of hours. Meaning the data handling would need to be significantly smaller.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-03-01 19:00:12 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
Just remember that X is a variable and 10000000000000000000 could still conceivably be the number that goes there. Not saying that's actually what the variable is or what the actual bandwidth of these things would be. Just think, there are 2.71 x 10^26 hydrogen atoms in a single pound of hydrogen. So there's a lot of atoms to create bandwidth to go around.

But then this begs the question, if this level of bandwidth exists, why is my Capsule in my ship, thats really dangerous if the instantaneous FTL bandwidth exists for me to operate the ship in 0.0 from my cozy Capsuleer quarters in Kisogo.

We may not have that technology... but that doesn't mean others don't. Plus, the data transmission of our mind to a new clone when we get podded has to be orders of magnitude larger than the text ftl transmissions. Plus does anyone wonder why sleeper ships are called drones?

Maybe they're being remotely piloted that way... like a drone!
Gen Fesslenski
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-03-03 03:50:02 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
So according to the articles, FTL communication is handled by a Quantum entanglement system, you have a material, do SCIENCE to it and then you have a quantum spin on one particle which spins its counterpart in the opposite direction. Thinking about it, what kind of bandwidth do we have on this system?

We have two examples of its usage, one for communications of text, which can be measured in KiloBits per second (Kb/s), and the other being the transmission of a human mind on the event of a pods destruction/ breach / playing silly buggers with self podding to move around. Now the Human brain has no currently known storage capacity, because we barely understand how the human brain embeds memories into long term memory in the first place. However, we can take a stab at it for the sake of Internet Hypothesising ™.

Using the number of neurons as roughly a billion (10^9), each of which connects to roughly another thousand of the other neurons (10^3). This leads ultimately to an estimate of a Human brain having a storage space of 2.5PetaBytes. So there we are, the upper bandwidth would be how much it takes to shunt that data to the clone, which would be a 20Petabit connection if it takes a second and the logs show it.

And however (that's my new favourite word by the way) this would be highly inefficient as a data management system. The most likely way would be considerably beneath this upper boundary, as a Partial File Copying system used, where only the chunks of data that change are used to be rebroadcast back. The image of a kitten with a cute caption, is memorable and adorable. Odds are it was remembered in the backup, and the only thing that would be send back would be thoughts relating to, and built on that thought that was laid down into long term memory as opposed to the original image. Problem is, that memories change every time we access them. Odds are you spotted my handsome mug when you opened this thread, in the mean time you have read this, considered the words and will remember the mugshot slightly differently as the new information changes what you see of it.

Heres a Basketball game to illustrate it.

tl;dr

Human brains are big, and the data accessing is volatile.

So, that's my thought process to aim at the Devs, how much bandwidth can you squeeze through those wibbly wobbly entanglement things? I'm guessing that its low enough that its not worthwhile simply making supercomputer grids on planets and offloading a ships processor to that so it can fit more gear. Unless the CPU on a ship already took this into account as standard practice and the CPU available was the bandwidth available to send/receive offloaded processing.




Realistically, there are two massive flaws in this concept. Firstly of that '10 Petabytes' of information, most of it is entirely predicatble and reconstructible by simulation of the growth of DNA. Remember that your toon is in a pod that completely contains him and feeds him completely predictable nutrition etc. this is why soft cloning would work in my eyes.

Secondly your brain can have most of it's data backed up periodically. Nothing says that this data cannot be relayed by your pod on a much larger scale to local data relays with bigger, more powerful entanglement devices... like Customs Offices etc. I read somewhere on the web that our memory only constitutes about 10TB in total, and if 9 of that is old news and 500GB is easily generated from the other 500GB then you need only 500GB to transfer and a few arrays of QEDs that can be used.

Logically though, QED's maintain spin with thier counterpart sub-atoms, so if you are able to collect enough of these then you can have as much bandwidth as you like I suppose.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#13 - 2013-03-03 04:33:04 UTC
Sonkut wrote:
. Yes, the brain holds Considerably more but, when a modern server backs up, does it backup everything at once? No. not most of the time anyhow. What it does it take one big backup, followed by snapshots of just what changed.


Gen Fesslenski wrote:


Secondly your brain can have most of it's data backed up periodically. Nothing says that this data cannot be relayed by your pod on a much larger scale to local data relays with bigger, more powerful entanglement devices... like Customs Offices etc. I read somewhere on the web that our memory only constitutes about 10TB in total, and if 9 of that is old news and 500GB is easily generated from the other 500GB then you need only 500GB to transfer and a few arrays of QEDs that can be used.


Thankyou for replying, but I covered exactly this in the opening post Blink

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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#14 - 2013-03-03 15:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
If entangled particles = 1 bit.

Your band width = number of particles.

So you need the the same number of entangled particles in the pods transmitter as nurons.