EVE General Discussion

Hello, I live in Europe.

We have the highest taxes in Europe, we have all the taxes you could ever dream of and also deductions yet we and the rest of Europe are sinking like an hot knife in butter.

History has shown me that depressing the money sources (usually with the pathetic excuse of "fair distribution") is the socialist way to economy suicide.

You seem to forget which country this economic suicide started in.

You managed to keep a somewhat strong economy by cannibalizing southern countries and imposing them strong austerity exactly during the worst economy depression since '29.

Yes we can, because that's the nature of a sandbox.

See, you say this, but you also said you dock up and tell everyone else to dock, and the reality of it is, that's not at all how you want to play. If it wasn't a problem you guys wouldn't be making post after post about how you shouldn't have to assume any risk.

You're losing before you even got started, you just don't realize it.


I find it amusing that you literally condemned people for using intelligent logistics to get their war targets.

In the end, the truth of EVE is that you're SUPPOSED to lose things. That doesn't apply to only one or two areas of EVE, that's EVERY area of EVE. You make the lovely assumption that CCP wants to keep the risk averse around, yet they go to great pains to try and get more ship destruction in high sec. Yes indeed, while they did curb miner ganking quite a bit, most everything about 2012 had to do with generating more ship explosions; not just in low and null, but high sec as well.

Even CCP was pretty clear that they want to find ways to get you to undock for a war in high sec. They had an entire section of the CSM minutes dedicated to discussion about that very issue. CCP is also pretty open about the fact that not everyone is meant to play EVE, and that it's OK for people to try the game, find out that it's a little harsher then they like, and quit.

High sec safety is not the reason that EVE has grown over the last decade. It grew because they actually fixed what was a pretty poorly relased game in '03.

There's nothing wrong with staying docked to deny your enemy the satisfaction of a kill. There is something wrong with trying to insinuate that you're somehow doing exactly what CCP wants you to do, and that those of you simply do not want any PvP are the people that CCP developes EVE for. You're wrong.

CCP wants you to get blown up, the entire game is designed and structured around that one simple fact.
You're entire post is basically an attempt to deny that very fact. It's the only reason you and I, as industrialists, are able to be industrialists. You don't just build combat ships to sell in high sec, you build everything you need to do industry as well, if you guys don't get blown up, you can't sell industrial goods.


The one group of people that benefits the most from pvp and ship destruction are industrialists; you're a really ****** industrialist when you complain about PvP and people "forcing you to play their way".

We are not all whiny little bitches just becaue we prefer industry over pvp; you make the rest of us look bad. I hope someone eventually greifs you out of the ******* game. You don't benefit the game in any way, what-so-ever. You're just flooding markets with goods and minerals and taking profits from other industrialist.

As an industrialist, the people I want blown up most, are other industrialists I am not allied with. You're my cometition, not the PvP or PvE, YOU. If I'm runing an industrial corp in high sec, it would benefit me to get other people to go to war with you, and just because it's not some guy in a venture trying to blow you up it doesn't mean that there isn't some industrialist behind it all, or that they only want to pick on people that can't defend themselves.

The only justification for not undocking is to deny your enemy a kill, everything else is your sorry attempt to try and convince others that high sec pvp against industrialists is bad, when it's the actually the best thing for EVE and every other industrialist that isn't you.

Someone else is profitting off you're risk aversion, it's the only justification they need to see that you're at war, and unwilling to undock.

Cry and make all the excuses you want, in the end you're the one coming out the loser.

Yep, the strong austerity is stupid, but I fail to see the connection to our own industry, which is strong because Germany is still exporting goods to places all over the world. I didn't know our industry cannibalized Italy or Greece.

http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_December_2012.pdf
Page 65 onward, for anyone else interested.

I liked this exchange especially. CSM seems divided on the issue.



Page 69 on they actually point out that there's no incentive for the outmatched party to fight out the war when they can just stay docked or drop to NPC corp.

So sadly not a very productive discussion. The main conclusion is that the only wardecs that work ok are the consensual ones(RvB etc).

CCP seemed to be against this policy. They view wardecs as a "revenge/I want to kill you" mechanic sorta like bounties, which are also not consensual. But I am disappointed that there weren't any ideas presented to help make those wars better.

I'm in favour of bribery, myself. Take the wardec fee the attacker pays, put them into a "war bounty" pool for the defender, paid out on a value basis for kill they or their allies get. Might help shift things on the economic side a little more.
Some people will stay docked up or go to NPC corp regardless simply because they don't enjoy pvp, but the attacker is still winning by denying them their activity, ownership of POSes, and lower tax rates. If player corps offered better non-social advantages, it'd be even better.

Yes, but I was more referring to the people like the OP.

They are more of a slavism based country more than socialism. Those chinese industrialists showing off their custom Ferraris are not exactly your basic comrades.
They are succeeding because they are keeping their currency vastly below market value and thus gain a competitive advantage against everyone.

I know Chinese people who used to work like the early 19th century slave-workers of the western countries.

I sincerely prefer growing 2% a year with a real democracy like in Germany than growing 8-12% with those conditions.

This whole thread blows my mind.

The only suitable metaphor I could find is a child refusing to play soccer because the other team shows up. He orders his team to go and sit on the side of the pitch while the other team look at each other, shrug and play a little 5v5 match instead.

After a fun match they all go to their respective homes for dinner. Once they've left the child returns to the pitch and declares his team the winner.

He proceeds to do a lonely victory dance on the pitch.

It's kind of sad in a way