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Kate stark

Likes received: 1,564

#121 - 2013-02-22 22:44:41 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

you're not going to nerf high sec mining's isk/hour unless you introduce low ends to null.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#122 - 2013-02-22 22:44:57 UTC | Edited by: James Amril-Kesh

Aren Madigan wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

Generally one of the complaints is lack of reward for being in a more dangerous area. How does improving what is available out there not improve on that? Maybe be constructive rather than whine.

That's not the point. The point is it's being proposed here as the simple fix that would make everything worthwhile. Well, frankly, it isn't. Sure mining in null could use some work. Mining EVERYWHERE could use work. But as far as industry as a whole goes, that needs even more work and most of these people are proposing these alternate schemes because they're scared to death of highsec getting nerfed. They don't care about the health of the game, they only care about preserving a system they benefit from.

Kate stark wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

you're not going to nerf high sec mining's isk/hour unless you introduce low ends to null.

I'm not interested in nerfing high sec mining's isk/hour. As far as I'm concerned that's fine where it is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kate stark

Likes received: 1,564

#123 - 2013-02-22 22:48:51 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Kate stark wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

you're not going to nerf high sec mining's isk/hour unless you introduce low ends to null.

I'm not interested in nerfing high sec mining's isk/hour. As far as I'm concerned that's fine where it is.

so you're fine with mining having an isk/hour ratio that's the same in null as it is in high sec?
by that logic you should be fine with people in high sec, making the same isk/hour as null sec residents, regardless of activity.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#124 - 2013-02-22 23:00:40 UTC | Edited by: James Amril-Kesh

Pretty sure I never said that either.
You can buff mining isk/hr in null without having to nerf it in highsec.

In any case, what's going to happen is that the reduction in consumption by nullsec of highsec minerals will probably cause a decrease in their income anyway, probably offset by the loss of mineral imports from nullsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Aren Madigan

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 672

#125 - 2013-02-22 23:06:39 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Aren Madigan wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

Generally one of the complaints is lack of reward for being in a more dangerous area. How does improving what is available out there not improve on that? Maybe be constructive rather than whine.

Kate stark wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

All these people who are proposing that we make super asteroids or better low ends or whatnot have no idea what they're talking about or why the imbalance exists.

you're not going to nerf high sec mining's isk/hour unless you introduce low ends to null.

I'm not interested in nerfing high sec mining's isk/hour. As far as I'm concerned that's fine where it is.

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there. You're right about one thing though. One simple fix isn't going to solve everything. A lot of small fixes will solve a lot though and are easier to predict the full effect of over one massive change. Caring about the health of the game involves looking at the whole picture, including playstyles and viewpoints contrary to your own. Even if you think they are "stupid" or whatever words you choose to use to describe them. Not that everything has to be happy fun time, but its pretty clear there's a wide variety of viewpoints in EVE that all deserve looking at rather than ideas that bash on all the others. In fact, I'd say that's the real source of animosity between null sec and high sec. High sec in itself isn't really broken. Its effect on null sec can be though which gives the impression to null sec people that it is, so instead of thinking of ways to lighten the blow on themselves, its become an attitude of "**** you, high sec", which frankly, is the equivalent of flipping a table and shouting at the people. It stops being about the health of the game at that point and about what they want for the game. Which its ok to want something out of a game, but you end up stepping on a lot more toes than is really needed sometimes.

TL;DR: A sledgehammer putting in one giant nail in a board isn't always better than a hammer putting several nails in that same board.

Kate stark

Likes received: 1,564

#126 - 2013-02-22 23:09:53 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

i know you didn't say it, i was merely taking liberties with extrapolation for the sake of debate.

you say you can buff mining isk/hour in null without having to nerf high sec, how exactly would you achieve that?

adding low sec minerals to spod/gneiss would indeed increase null sec income by stopping spod/gneiss being 2m isk/jetcan ores, and yes, importing less from high sec will reduce their isk/hour as low end mineral supply increases and prices will fall. it's a very easy change that will effectively "fix" mining in terms of isk/hour respective to the "risk".

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#127 - 2013-02-22 23:10:55 UTC

Aren Madigan wrote:

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Stopped reading right there. As we've demonstrated several times, you can't make nullsec industry viable without nerfing highsec industry. This is not controversial. It's fact. Don't pretend otherwise.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#128 - 2013-02-22 23:15:07 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Aren Madigan wrote:

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

how dare you be so self righteous as to insist your statements backed by coherent arguments and actual facts are superior to my unsupported wailing

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

State War Academy Caldari State 1,581
Arronicus State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 1,581	#129 - 2013-02-22 23:16:48 UTC 1 Let's be honest here. There's at least one of this thread every day, and this one offers nothing new or interesting.

Ginger Barbarella

Likes received: 2,069

#130 - 2013-02-22 23:17:38 UTC

Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Let's be honest here people (even if only because you need to take a break from ISK scamming every once in a while)...

It seems you can't go 24 hours without some ganker posting another tired "nerf hisec" thread. It's tired. It's old.

Stopped reading here because OP invalidated his/her own point.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Arronicus

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,581

#131 - 2013-02-22 23:18:47 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Aren Madigan wrote:

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Indeed. This is a widely known fact, the only disagreement with it is akin to tobacco companies paying 'scientists' to try to create confusion within the community. People like Aren Madigan are only saying what they are saying, because they have nothing to gain from the game being properly rebalanced.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#132 - 2013-02-22 23:20:40 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Good, you have identified a facet of this problem, ergo that the base refinery rate for a POS even after the upgrade is only 50%.

No, I'm going to have to stop you right there. I'm not talking about POSes. They're a separate matter that need to be fixed in various ways, but since they exist everywhere, they are not the solution to the null problem and have their own balancing issues, but rather in terms of PC vs. NPC corp membership.

I'm talking about outposts, and outposts alone. They need to match NPC stations in high (and low and null) before we even begin to touch POSes. And no, refining is actually a very tiny part of the puzzle…

As such, the rest of your post is far to early for the discussion. I'm sure it's nice work and all, but it's a secondary issue.

Aren Madigan wrote:

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Unfortunately, you're pretty much completely wrong there. The oft-suggested nerfs to highsec are required to make the rest of the game work and to improve the health of the game. The entire problem here is that highsec is providing a far too high baseline for production capabilities at too low a cost and too much ease of use, which leaves zero margin for other areas to be better at.

So the whole thing must start with creating such a margin — this means nerfing highsec. There's quite literally no way around that. Without highsec nerfs, the health of the game cannot improve; highsec nerfs do not in any way hurt the health of the game, but rather provide room for health improvements.

Agnar Volta

Investtan Inc.

The Republic.

Likes received: 157

#133 - 2013-02-22 23:29:12 UTC

After reading this tread I have to say that I changed my mind on the subject of industry in Null.

HS can be nerfed to accommodate industry in Null, and the result would be positive for eve as a whole. Not to mention that causing stir in the status quo can only be a good thing as the game is a bit boring right now as I deduce for the amount of people from Null asking for the infrastructure to build stuff.

I'm just amazed as the old (and dead) alliances in eve hated carebears in their mists and the new overlords of null just want more and more of them. Who would have imagine a few years ago that people in null want to mine and build stuff?

Some game stiles that depend on a strong HS industry will suffer though, people like suicide gankers, station traders and logistic companies may have to move to null. I might be wrong about logistics as the imports from null will increase, but HS population don't buy ships so often.

Lets see how it goes, what do we have to lose?

Aren Madigan

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 672

#134 - 2013-02-22 23:33:14 UTC | Edited by: Aren Madigan

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Aren Madigan wrote:

Quit being so damned self righteous. The often suggested nerfs to high sec won't help the health of the game any more than many other ideas out there.

Can't know anything of the sort without trying. Otherwise there's not enough to back up your claim. It could just as easily be focused around how easy it is to jump goods into nullsec cheaply and safely. In fact I'd say it'd take nerfing high sec into oblivion for your method to work if done on its own. Getting supply into null sec is incredibly easy and safe as it stands if I'm understanding correctly, so your method would have to take that into account as well when making the nerf (as well as the added risk of going from null to high to import goods and the losses involved) or it all ends up either being ineffectual or too much of a hit to be sensible, obliterating any chance of a new industrialist of getting anywhere. There is a high sec industrial nerf that is kind of needed though. The tutorial agent mission stations REALLY should only allow manufacturing for the tutorial missions. Some people like flooding those WAY too much.

Arronicus wrote:

Or maybe because I've figured out why they haven't already done the things you're suggestion. Obliterating the game's economy is not something that creates balance. I guarantee you that they have a professional economist among their staff that has seen the same issues I have and more with a change like what is being suggested as a lone solution.

Tesal

Likes received: 452

#135 - 2013-02-22 23:41:55 UTC

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Aren Madigan wrote:

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

The very vast majority of people are mining in high sec, including your enemies who are also attempting to move large quantities of goods from high to null. You dont' wait for them to get home with the goods, you go to where they're attempting to export from to stop them; that means high sec.

Actually, most blockades take place on the borders of the country you're trying to blockade... just becomes a bit harder when jump drives are involved to do things that way... actually, it makes me doubt that any high sec changes would make them any easier to blockade as they could just wait inside the station until its clear and then jump. And maybe that's the real issue. The obvious response would seem to be to find out where their usual jump points are and jump with them with your own cyno, take em out there, but they likely usually jump to a POS. Maybe they shouldn't be able to jump too close to a protected area? Maybe there should be ways to intercept cyno signals and give them to your own fleet? Maybe something that'd actually work in general.

It was more the point,

We're not here, because we're there. Everyone seems to have a problem with us not being where they expect us to be, but when people explain why we're not there they don't want to hear it.

As one model high seccer put it, "we would control the economy!!!1" Which is a bunch of bullshit. We'd control OUR eocnomies.

When was the last time some of you high sec ******* dropped a billion in a null market, buying **** made by a null industrialist? Because I've gone through over 3 billion this buying **** in high sec.

Honestly, I'm at the point of just wanting to repsond to most of these threads with a big go **** yourself to the ignorants that have no idea how **** works outside of high sec. All I see are people who want the unbalance to remain because it benefits them.

This is where the null vs high sec animosity stems. Bunch of self entiltled twats who want everything for nothing and have no problem telling the rest of us to go **** ourselves because this is how it should be. Nevermind that those of us joining player run corps in null sec, with much higher difficulty aren't being rewarded; while guys are flying around high sec half braindead and alseep, putting in no effort, crying when someone so much as targets them (oh ******* god, he bumped me!), and getting better rewards for playing on "I'm a down child difficulty".

I'm a self entitled ****. I bravely sit in Jita day after day doing market orders.

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#136 - 2013-02-22 23:44:38 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Aren Madigan wrote:

Can't know anything of the sort without trying.

Yes we can, simply by looking at the mechanics involved and what is required to make them go.

Even without that, it has already been tried and proven to be true. We have nearly a decade of data to back it up.

Quote:

It could just as easily be focused around how easy it is to jump goods into nullsec cheaply and safely.

No. Making it more difficult to bring materials (and finished products) out into null does not touch the actual core problems of production capacity and efficiency. Yes, getting supply into null is incredibly easy… which kind of proves the point: even with that ease of transport, it's still a complete waste of time and money to do your industry in null.

Quote:

In fact I'd say it'd take nerfing high sec into oblivion for your method to work if done on its own.

Here's the thing, though: no-one is talking about nerfing highsec into oblivion so you can drop your nonsensical strawman. We're talking about nerfing it into equality with null, at least for the aspects where null inherently creates difficulties that can't be solved without completely changing null itself.

So no, it won't obliterate the chances of new industrialists — it will only put them on equal footing across all space. That's pretty much the exact opposite of obliterating anyone's chances. It will also not in any way “obliterate the economy” (and yes, the good doctor knows this) — if you think that's the reason, you've figured it wrong…

In fact, let me ask you: why do believe that industrial equality would obliterate the economy?


James Amril-Kesh Viziam Amarr Empire Likes received: 11,532	#137 - 2013-02-22 23:46:11 UTC 1 Aren Madigan wrote: Obliterating the game's economy is not something that creates balance. Nobody is suggesting that. Nobody wants that. God, you're dense... Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Natsett Amuinn

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,232

#138 - 2013-02-22 23:47:17 UTC | Edited by: Natsett Amuinn

Aren Madigan wrote:

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Why would someone from high sec go to the place where things are more expensive to buy stuff? Which really is the thing. Because null sec has low supply, they have high prices. This isn't going to magically change. An interesting part of this is a lot of the most valuable materials come from null sec, but they still bring it to high sec to sell. This isn't going to change unless high sec became null sec, which isn't a reasonable expectation no matter how much some people want it to be. And don't give me that crap about you guys not being rewarded. The most valuable stuff is in null sec and wormhole space. If that isn't a reward, then what the hell is? I'll be heading out to wormhole space and null eventually for just that reason. I'm more than for ways to prevent shipments from reaching null sec safely. Not however for ideas that instead cater to whining about not being able to do whatever they want, when they want, where they want. And that's my problem with a lot of these null sec "suggestions". While their intentions might be one thing, the results go far far beyond their intentions. It always ends up being about these massive drastic changes that change pretty much everything except what's actually broken in the first place or ends up breaking other things, and really those sort of ideas aren't worth much.

Let me clarify something.

I did not spend 3 billion this week in high sec on FINISHED goods. That's what I spent just to be able to build in null.

So tell me, how much do you spend in null in order to build in high sec?

PS: As a null builder, the best stuff is sitting in high sec stations.
Even if I mined, scordite is still "the best stuff". Nor do you need to go to null to mine ice or gas. Why would you come to null to mine high ends that will make you just as much, with far more hassle, as mining low ends in high sec?

Have you ever done T2 production, anywhere? Do you have any idea what you have to go through to build T2 goods in null?
No, you wouldn't, you've don't live in null, Mr. EVE UNIVERSITY dude telling me what's what.

The "best stuff" in null and wormholes has nothing to do with a line member industrialist that builds T2 goods to help supply his corps markets. The **** do I care about officer spawns and loot, in fact I am adimently against any and all NPC loot drops.

"what I want, when I want, where I want" That is EXACTLY what I was talking about in the last part of my previous post. Thank you for reaffirming what I said. So, like I said, kindly go....

sYnc Vir

Wolfsbrigade

Ghost Legion.

Likes received: 535

#139 - 2013-02-23 00:31:26 UTC

I would be up for all High Sec stations losing there Indy slots altogether and forcing all building, research, invent and refining being done at a POS.

Maybe not refining unless the fix pos refining, or keep it at a station but slap a Max 80% yield with max skills on it - 2% minerals in cost. Were at a pos with max skills would give 100%.

Plus kinda bad that stuff can be made in station at next to no risk. Move all building to Pos's in highsec, and only let Losec and null sec stations build. At a scaling cost per sec of station. Starting at 0.4 being 10% and 0.1 being 6%. Would also mean no more cap building in highsec stations.

Increase all T1 ship and all Module building Arrays to a uniform 20 Slots, So you don't need as many. 1 Slot on advanced ship arrays is kinda weak so increase those to 10 slots. Allow pos refining in highsec pos's, with more then 1 orca per hour rate, cause thats weak.

Would also love Pos's to lose the powergrid and cpu limts(Or at lease increase them). Instead I would like each tower to have a base fuel block use. Then every item you slap on it, increases the fuel cost. Perhaps a Pos mod that Increases Pos Powergrid and another that increase CPU for X units per hour of fuel. Doesn't seem that hard to add into the current system.

The Idea being of cause, that highsec is fine and all, but if you want the best rewards from highsec, then you have to have **** in space peoples can kill.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau 1,147
Nexus Day Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau Likes received: 1,147	#140 - 2013-02-23 00:35:23 UTC 3 We all play different games. Try to enjoy yours.