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New NPC AI, how about no?

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Mund Richard
#541 - 2013-02-13 20:10:57 UTC
Keko Khaan wrote:
But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS..
To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad.

But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad.

Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking...Roll).
If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#542 - 2013-02-15 01:04:50 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Keko Khaan wrote:
But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS..
To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad.

But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad.

Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking...Roll).
If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs.


its not necessary for a domi to RR its drones in L4 missions. I still haven't lost any post CCP fixing the fullstage aggro bugs.

Note that drone aggro is trivialised by (a) MJDs or (b) just bringing 750+ dps. ie I can drop sentries at the beacon and clear most pockets without baying the sentries, so long as I shoot the frigates first. Other than TD, e-war is trivialised by counter fitting with 2 appropriate modules, and quite frankly TD is close to trivialised by droneboats too.
anishamora
Atelierele Grivita
#543 - 2013-02-15 09:29:33 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
CCP has historically been very iffy on drones, but IMO I cannot fault their current policy. They've added drone damage mods, T2 drone applied damage mods, and nerfed the historically no drawback missile fits.

Ishtar probably has one of the highest ranged damage fits for a cruiser, typically fires a good damage type (thermal) and has excellent protection against damps, jams and TD, so they have 2 drawbacks - 1 easy to lock down with probes and 2 - can be shot in space.

There is no way IMO CCP can keep the current relative performance of drones without the drone aggro being such as it is now, otherwise it would be viewed as thoroughly overpowered.

As an amusing aside, I setup in sansha space, and I dragged with me 30mil isk in drones, and 114mil isk in faction ammo. I imagine that there will be plenty of drones left when that ammo is gone.


The Isthar itself is just a side-effect, CCP shouldn't nerf a whole weapon system just because some drone boats are OP or some players were AFK-ing L4s or plexes. The fixes should be surgical not butcher-y.
Mund Richard
#544 - 2013-02-15 10:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Tauranon wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Keko Khaan wrote:
But i dont want to fill my highslots with some stupid drone rr module.. Just saying its bad idea.. Unless someone gives me one more highslot in my BS..
To have an option to do so wouldn't be bad.

But to make it semi-required because of how stuff work would be bad.

Flying a Domi because of the full rack of bonused guns gattling goodness (while shield tanking...Roll).
If I didn't care about the hardpoints, I would fly a Rattlesnake instead, that has two utility highs.
its not necessary for a domi to RR its drones in L4 missions. I still haven't lost any post CCP fixing the fullstage aggro bugs.

Note that drone aggro is trivialised by (a) MJDs or (b) just bringing 750+ dps. ie I can drop sentries at the beacon and clear most pockets without baying the sentries, so long as I shoot the frigates first. Other than TD, e-war is trivialised by counter fitting with 2 appropriate modules, and quite frankly TD is close to trivialised by droneboats too.
Had my drone shot at, but haven't lost any in L4s this year. Though my drone-using habits changed quite a bit.
So agreed on RR not being outright necessary.

Also agreed on how enough dps means you don't have to bother with stuff that are hassle, and also leads to a better drone experience.
Makes the hurdle a bit harder for new players, makes the Domi desirable over a Rattlesnake (for being able to snipe incoming frigs), and the second one ain't something I disapprove of.

E-War being trivialised by counter-fitting...
Now on that I'm not so sure, NPC Damp is stronger than player SeBos, so when 4+ are on you, you are screwed anyways, scripting for range makes lock-times long, scripting for resolution when they are outside lock range is silly.

Moved to Gurista space to avoid most of the Damp, with the new skill jamming on a Navy Domi seems to be ok even with no ECCM. Do get hit sometimes, but not chained for over a minute, and if they fail to get me the first cycle (for which my chances seem fair), I can kill the non-BS ones easy, unlike with damp that's getting applied more often from the start (at least to my experience).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#545 - 2013-02-15 11:46:23 UTC
anishamora wrote:


The Isthar itself is just a side-effect, CCP shouldn't nerf a whole weapon system just because some drone boats are OP or some players were AFK-ing L4s or plexes. The fixes should be surgical not butcher-y.


I remember being a drone boat player when there was

* no navy domi
* no t2 omnis
* no t2 drone link augs
* no DDAs
* only damage bonuser was rigs, and the rigs only affected sentries
* the rigs have a cpu penalty which was awful for the ishtar, which has limited cpu.

as a direct result of the changes I can hit 800 dps with a ranged ishtar without even really thinking about the fit, it has 200k per unit cpu rigs, not 20mil per unit sentry rigs, my nice flexible 5x350mm armor dominix fit went from 930 dps to 990 dps with even better improvements midfield and towards my drone control limit, and I was able to completely eliminate faction from my domi fit - I used to have to use 2 faction hardeners to squeeze under the cpu limit.

this latest change came with the final improvement to DDAs to make them equivalent in boosting amount to other damage mods, and for a player with good skills, missions actually get done faster, and plexes vastly so with the ishtar.
Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2013-02-15 12:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Juwi Kotch
I had to raise my standings to a corporation from zero to 6.67 for zero tax. After 25 lvl4 security missions during the last week I had achieved that goal.

I used a MJD Rattlesnake as a sentry drone boat. Over all those missions I lost 2 Warden II and 1 Garde II, and all three of them were lost due to inexperience and stupidity. If I would have been more focused, I would have lost none. I had to recall drones to the bay because they were going into armor not very often, on average probably once per mission.

Occasionally I had to use Hobgoblins II or Ogre II to fight frigates or larger ships which came too close. There was never a risk to loose one of them.

So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Mund Richard
#547 - 2013-02-15 12:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
The MJD breaks things hilariously, but I like to fly around without one.

In some missions, rats spawn in "random" directions 50-120 km away, which can make for boring downtime.

Plus the it's a battleship-only module, doesn't help an Ishtar or the new Prophecy.
Or anything that's not using sentries.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#548 - 2013-02-15 14:06:48 UTC
Juwi Kotch wrote:

So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective.


Only true for sentry drones. My heavy drone pure DPS alt Gila is unfortunately pretty useless right now.
Conan edogawa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#549 - 2013-02-15 22:13:09 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Juwi Kotch wrote:

So drones are not rendered useless with this new AI, just the contrary. They are very effective.


Only true for sentry drones. My heavy drone pure DPS alt Gila is unfortunately pretty useless right now.


http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2013/07/1360966354-droneboats.jpg Twisted
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#550 - 2013-02-15 22:18:06 UTC
testing on a dominix sentry inside forsaken hubs , sentries where getting agro all the time. Changed to TP less but still i got a sentry attacked on each spawn for the least 1 time. Ofc you dont lose something you just scoop and deploy again , but i dont think any other weapon system losing that much dps that many times as droneboats .

Ride hard, live with passion 
Kandrew Dorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2013-02-16 09:23:06 UTC
I'm sure I'm repeating what lots of people have said. Every time I fly my Ishtar I hate the changes more and more. It's tedious as hell to deploy my drones, let them get a few shots off, and then pull them back when they get targeted. I can't kite damage at all anymore because as soon as I get too far from my drones they die before I can get back. At this point it's more tolerable and way more profitable to use a blaster boat and mindlessly chew through boring forsaken hubs. All this patch has done is to seriously nerf the enjoyment and profit of drone users leaving the tengu as the reigning kind of plex runners. PvP is enjoyable because I'm fighting players, not because I'm microing drones or whatever.

TL;DR I'm having less fun in Eve and my choices are more limited.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#552 - 2013-02-16 09:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Kandrew Dorak wrote:
I'm sure I'm repeating what lots of people have said. Every time I fly my Ishtar I hate the changes more and more. It's tedious as hell to deploy my drones, let them get a few shots off, and then pull them back when they get targeted. I can't kite damage at all anymore because as soon as I get too far from my drones they die before I can get back.


Yeah, that's the thing. Sentries are working fine - possibly with a DPS loss due to redeployment unless used in a MJD sniper fit.
Ships that are not designed to be played as a sitting duck can't use sentries well, though.
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
#553 - 2013-02-21 13:54:48 UTC
Any change to this great and funny feature on latest patch?
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#554 - 2013-02-22 15:04:16 UTC
None that i've seen.
Many many threads on this and still nothing from CCP.

Maybe we should burn Jita? :)
Shadowschild
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2013-02-22 17:59:39 UTC
I think the current NPC AI is still in it's infancy. I'd like an actual challenge from them. You know some logistical cruisers, a mix of dampening / ecm / target painting & alot more warp scrambling not just from frigates.
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#556 - 2013-02-22 21:30:46 UTC
Shadowschild wrote:
I think the current NPC AI is still in it's infancy. I'd like an actual challenge from them. You know some logistical cruisers, a mix of dampening / ecm / target painting & alot more warp scrambling not just from frigates.


*squints eyes* Not sure if trolling....

Right now they need to reduce the cost to build drones down to close to what missiles cost and give us the ability to load them into the drone bay from the cargo hold if they want them to get killed in these numbers to make it "more challenging or entertaining" for us.

Not that most care but I did go and cancel my account last month, still running out my time training, but there is a place there so you can tell them why you canceled.... felt good. I kinda hope they fix the drone homicide before my account time runs out.

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson
Orlacc
#557 - 2013-02-22 22:16:05 UTC
Was a least 10 times as much whining when the new inventory came out. Did they change that? Keep necroing this thread ad nauseum.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Agrias Hellion
Diligentia Sodalitas
#558 - 2013-02-23 12:12:21 UTC
So basically people are saying the AI is not overkill because sentry drones are fine?

Please tell that to my drones I doubt it will cheer them up. I just lost another 6 drones, the ranges involved means you can't pull them back in time. Anything past 5km and they are dead before their shield is gone.

This is not fun, Tech 2 drones are not exactly the cheapest and it is predominantly the only way I use my ship. I doubt Sentries would have been much use in this pocket since you warp in and have 6 Guristas are you withing 10km.

This world collide segment will be the last mission to do, which leaves....not a lot else to do in Eve. So I guess my return to Eve will be cut short to one subscription month....again.

Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my testicles off with a spoon than give them any more money.

Who wants my stuff?
Orlacc
#559 - 2013-02-23 17:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Orlacc
Agrias Hellion wrote:
So basically people are saying the AI is not overkill because sentry drones are fine?

Please tell that to my drones I doubt it will cheer them up. I just lost another 6 drones, the ranges involved means you can't pull them back in time. Anything past 5km and they are dead before their shield is gone.

This is not fun, Tech 2 drones are not exactly the cheapest and it is predominantly the only way I use my ship. I doubt Sentries would have been much use in this pocket since you warp in and have 6 Guristas are you withing 10km.

This world collide segment will be the last mission to do, which leaves....not a lot else to do in Eve. So I guess my return to Eve will be cut short to one subscription month....again.

Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my ********* off with a spoon than give them any more money.

Who wants my stuff?



I will take it. I assume it is in high sec.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#560 - 2013-02-25 11:03:43 UTC
Agrias Hellion wrote:


Absolutely unbelievable that CCP have kept this turd going without actually improving it, pretty much all the people I used to know are gone or sold their accounts. I just stubbornly refused to do so. I think I would rather roll a Panda and saw my ********* off with a spoon than give them any more money.


You know what? People in Pandaland are making the exact same complaint about their friends all moving on.

I completely agree that the new AI need a lot of tweaking, mostly regarding mobile drones.

However, I'm rather in a game where people are leaving because it gets more complex, than in a game people are leaving because it gets dumbed down with every new patch.