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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#101 - 2013-01-25 14:35:40 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


** Why should the rats "Not" shoot you and allow you an easy kill against an already damaged and weakened target?


From a logical stand-point why would faction rats target something not agressing them over something that is? I do alot of ratter ganking up in Guristas space where I actually have some decent (corp) standing with them, it just doesn't make any sense for them to prioritize me over someone with significantly more standing than the person who's actually agressing them.

Solo roamers provide content, black ops drops and AFK cloakers are a solution to the AI issue but they hardly provide any entertainment for most involved, CCP should encourage player-created content and by proxy encourage solo roaming, AI affects that.

Ratters are there to generate isk in nullsec, and as we all know Eve is built around risk and reward, me burning 18 jumps in a hurricane through hostile nullsec and through enemy HQ systems to roam popular ratting areas in enemy territory, is me risking my ship for the reward of a possible ratter/other idiot kill. However ratters undock their ships in friendly space and rat in friendly space, to make 50/hour with ease, and all they have to do to avoid any risk is simply looking at intel channels and local. They're not supposed to hold their own against a Pvp fit ship, it doesn't work like that, the next thing you'll hear is miners claiming that asteroids should shield them from suicide gankers.


Personally, If I was a Pirate "AI" (Faction or otherwise) and had been fighting something for a few minuets and loosing ships, or just loosing in general) and an easier to kill target warped in, You better believe I would switch targets.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#102 - 2013-01-25 14:37:58 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;)

Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#103 - 2013-01-25 14:45:20 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;)

Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations.


Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.


On another Note not really in reply to you but to Rodderick:

I PvP fit my Ratting ship and Pray to God some noob Terrorist pilot TRIES to kill me while I'm ratting. And I always OMNI tank my ship. With my SP rats don't even dent it anyway no matter how I fit the damn thing.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#104 - 2013-01-25 14:49:03 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

You're addressing the problem from the wrong side, m8 ;)

Moronity you describe only happens because NPCs don't warp out when farmers shoot them. Can you imagine how stupid that actually is? Fix that and all of a sudden everyone farming is now required to have a scram/point of his own. That will even up the odds for pretty much all situations.


Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.

May be, but that should become a rule rather than an exception. Also, afaik currently scrams won't prevent rats from warping out, so there are 2 issues that require CCP's attention.

Among other things, this is strictly in line with Ytterbium ideas of bringing PvP and PvE closer to each other.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#105 - 2013-01-25 15:13:21 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.

Confirming this.

I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me...

I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#106 - 2013-01-25 15:15:03 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.

May be, but that should become a rule rather than an exception. Also, afaik currently scrams won't prevent rats from warping out, so there are 2 issues that require CCP's attention.

Among other things, this is strictly in line with Ytterbium ideas of bringing PvP and PvE closer to each other.

I think this would solve a lot of issues with ratting at least.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#107 - 2013-01-25 17:15:33 UTC
Yep, I have had rats in Null Sec belts warp out on me. It's pretty rare though. I wouln't know if it happens in all belts, because High Sec belt rats melt from bad intentions, and Low Sec is too annoying to fly in. But Null Sec rats have been warping off for a couple of years at least, it's been that long since I was in Null Sec shooting them.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#108 - 2013-01-25 17:28:44 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.

Confirming this.

I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me...

I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before.

It happens more often in nullsec belts than in other places.

Last time I checked, a point was not sufficient to hold them down, either.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#109 - 2013-01-25 19:33:54 UTC
"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"

I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.

So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?

That doesn't make sense.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-01-25 20:28:12 UTC
Aglais wrote:
"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"

I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.

So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?

That doesn't make sense.


Ah, that 1337 kb-humper sense of entitlement.Big smile
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#111 - 2013-01-26 02:49:32 UTC
Aglais wrote:
"i hate carebears and i think that they should die 100% of the time when i come across them they shouldnt have any say in the game since they are playing it wrong and im an awesome 'pvper' and thus am inherently superior and so the carebears have to either not be caught by me or accept their deaths"

I don't understand all the hate towards those who go after PvE gameplay in order to actually make the ISK necessary to do other things. Like actually engage people such as yourself in so called 'good' fights that involve two sides who try. It's like there's only one way to play EVE according to some people. And that is to ONLY do PvP content. You are not allowed to make money. You are only allowed to fight other people and be an elite nullsec fight champion or whatever.

So basically NPCs shouldn't target a new ship that is deemed to be a higher thread than what was attacking first due to having more DPS but less tank and thus a higher priority target? Which will only benefit you, the higher value target?

That doesn't make sense.


I don't have any dislike towards carebears at all, I myself do missions to support my pvp habit.

I'm saying that the NPC AI is flawed as the "threat" system isn't adequately taking into consideration who has aggression against what and is instead prioritizing targets who use Warp disruptors/scrams.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#112 - 2013-01-26 06:42:45 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Um.. The AI's actually do warp out on occasion if they are loosing.

Confirming this.

I first noticed it the other day when two Gurista BS's ran from me...

I stared at the overview in surprise, I simply had never seen this behavior from NPC's before.

It happens more often in nullsec belts than in other places.

Last time I checked, a point was not sufficient to hold them down, either.


yeah its cop's effort to make stating more PvP oriented, so that PvE players have to fit a disruptor to make sure they don't lose out on the good bounties
Sigras
Conglomo
#113 - 2013-01-26 07:08:19 UTC
This thread deserves the godzilla facepalm

If you cant kill someone in a PvE fit ship with your PvP fit ship while tanking all the rats them you probably shouldnt be using your PvP fit ship . . . especially since you should know what damage type theyre doing and what type theyre tanking for.

That being said, it is an interesting idea to make rats try to warp out but of course, you would have to make the AI as such that if one of them is scrambled they all stay because it would be stupid to warp in on a group of rats and have them all warp out on you but the one you scrambled.
Katherine Jasmone
#114 - 2013-01-26 09:38:10 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.


How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.

Carebears, Nullbears and CCP, oh my.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#115 - 2013-01-26 13:09:57 UTC
Katherine Jasmone wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.


How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.


The issue is that they switch to the ganker over the pver due to a point, which I don't really think should be much of a factor to rats.

You're kind of right though previously there was little risk, when you're on grid with the pve ship, but think of all the time and effort that leads up to that point, the majority of ratter deaths are due to them not watching local or reading intel, an inattentive player should not be assisted by the very things he's generating an income off.

Also your points of argument have already been brought up and argued against so I recommend you read the comments instead of just the OP before you post.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-01-26 16:03:34 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Katherine Jasmone wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.


How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.


The issue is that they switch to the ganker over the pver due to a point, which I don't really think should be much of a factor to rats.

You're kind of right though previously there was little risk, when you're on grid with the pve ship, but think of all the time and effort that leads up to that point, the majority of ratter deaths are due to them not watching local or reading intel, an inattentive player should not be assisted by the very things he's generating an income off.

Also your points of argument have already been brought up and argued against so I recommend you read the comments instead of just the OP before you post.


There is a simple solution to your problem - don't fit a point. The carebear's not fitting one, so why are you?Lol
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#117 - 2013-02-22 15:10:03 UTC
Still waiting for some fixes CCP please.
I'm holding out in hope..
Doddy
Excidium.
#118 - 2013-02-22 15:24:17 UTC
Well to make it fair and balanced rats should warp off when outmatched, requiring ratters to have to use points and thus build more threat. Rats seeing the pvper as more threatening to them than the guy killing them because he points the guy killing them is probably the stupidest thiing ccp have come up with in years.
Doddy
Excidium.
#119 - 2013-02-22 15:27:20 UTC
Katherine Jasmone wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Having to run from ratting tengus and drakes because the rats have switched to you is a terrible feeling.

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?

I think CCP should make it the mechanics work like this:

A drake warps into a belt and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The drake attacks one of the rats granting it priority 1 aggression.

The drake gets it's drones out and attacks a frigate rat with them, the drones now have priority 1 aggression aswell, allowing NPC AI to switch in-between their desired targets.

A Cynabal enters the belt and attacks the Drake and gains priority 2 aggression from the rats.

The rats continue attacking the drake, as the drake has type 1 aggression.

The drake dies, the rats switch to the Cynabal as there are no priority 1 targets on field.


How about, no. Rats shouldn't differentiate between mission runner or would-be ganker. You are an enemy of rats to 100% regardless if your intent is to bank the runner or shoot rats. Previously there was no risk to the ganker because the rats lock would stay on the runner now the playing field is more even and you can now call for the w-a-a-a-a-a-a-ambulance.


How is the playing field more even when the rats will always help the guy attacking them (unless the ratter is ratting in a bubble or is scrambling rats himself for some reason).
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#120 - 2013-02-22 15:55:02 UTC
How about this?

You can get the rats AI to ignore you in a fight, but the consequences are that you take a security hit.
After all, you are assisting pirates, and as such bear responsibility for their victory against forces attempting to reduce their number.

Enemy combatants... tsk tsk, the empires frown on that.

Now, if you stick around after, and betray your new allies by trying to kill them, they call in reinforcements against you.
(A full spawn that drops no added loot, they had no time to pick up any on the way over)
Think of it as the reinforcements hate double crossers more than honest enemies.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...