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FW STILL BROKEN?
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#81 - 2013-02-22 00:29:58 UTC
The current system is ok.

However I am not 100% sure about timer roll backs.

I use the timer to make plexing uneconomical for farmers in my home system. I'll run it almost all the way up and leave - making novices 19min if they wanna run it. They don't bother 99% of the time. The timer is a great defensive tool.

I also use the timers to deny income near DT. I'll chase the farmer out and run until 1min more is left on it then there is until DT and then I can leave the plex knowing it won't be capped in time.

Surprising how many farmers come back and sit in the plex without realizing they have wasted their time and capping it is not possible before DT.


https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#82 - 2013-02-22 00:42:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
My point is that its a pretty far stretch to say roaming around shooting any and all non-blues is "fighting for occupancy."
That wasn't your point. But in any case, yes we (my corp) do fight for occupancy every day and we get massive numbers of kills and losses going up against WTs while doing so. If we didn't fight for occupancy, we'd be forced to live somewhere else.



Thats Fine XG I am calling a truce with you. I am not so bitter that I begrudge your happieness with sov warfare. I love plex fights probably as much as, if not more, than anyone in eve. So I am by and large very happy about what ccp did in creating them. You seem happy with the overall sov warfare structure. So whatever. You have fun with it and I will continue to use plexes for fights.

We don't need to **** up every thread with our squabbling. Lots of people are new to the whole faction war game and we can both help them understand it better. But if we are just bickering constantly no one will listen to either of us.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#83 - 2013-02-22 00:47:21 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
The current system is ok.

However I am not 100% sure about timer roll backs.

I use the timer to make plexing uneconomical for farmers in my home system. I'll run it almost all the way up and leave - making novices 19min if they wanna run it. They don't bother 99% of the time. The timer is a great defensive tool.

I also use the timers to deny income near DT. I'll chase the farmer out and run until 1min more is left on it then there is until DT and then I can leave the plex knowing it won't be capped in time.

Surprising how many farmers come back and sit in the plex without realizing they have wasted their time and capping it is not possible before DT.





I agree this is a good tactic that should not be ruined. What do you think about the idea that the timer rollback or some automatic count back of or a minute or 2 would only happen if an enemy or a neutral is on grid with you or the accel gate?

The problem isn't really that people leave a plex before it runs. The problem is people run when pvpers show up.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#84 - 2013-02-22 02:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
The current system is ok.

However I am not 100% sure about timer roll backs.

I use the timer to make plexing uneconomical for farmers in my home system. I'll run it almost all the way up and leave - making novices 19min if they wanna run it. They don't bother 99% of the time. The timer is a great defensive tool.

I also use the timers to deny income near DT. I'll chase the farmer out and run until 1min more is left on it then there is until DT and then I can leave the plex knowing it won't be capped in time.

Surprising how many farmers come back and sit in the plex without realizing they have wasted their time and capping it is not possible before DT.





I agree this is a good tactic that should not be ruined. What do you think about the idea that the timer rollback or some automatic count back of or a minute or 2 would only happen if an enemy or a neutral is on grid with you or the accel gate?

The problem isn't really that people leave a plex before it runs. The problem is people run when pvpers show up.




I think I would prefer no roll back and a kill bonus on the timer.
Example:
If a Caldari gets an enemy or neutral kill in a plex the timer jumps in the killers favor by maybe 2 min with a maximum 6min of bonus being possible in a novice.

Incremental possible timer bonuses as plexs get larger so that 3 or 4 kills in a plex = 60% time off running it. If the kills all happen in the last 60% of the timer - it just closes as you have 'won' the plex via pvp.


That way defending the plex by PvPing is rewarded but not so exploitable you can just close plexes with alts.
Naturally rookie ships, shuttles or ships with more than 1 empty slot being killed should not effect the timer at all.

Or -

Base the bonus on isk killed - maybe 2 min per 10 mil killed in a novice (based on Jita averages)
So unfit alts ships will do nothing if people decide to try and exploit the system - It would be easy to make it cost more to exploit then the LP reward would total.



EDIT:
I missed stuff.

Some will always run - The trick is not to chase anyone in useless systems.

However in the systems the PvPers live in they will defend.

Plex in Eha, Oicx, Vlil, Nenn etc and you will get pvpers who are willing to both defend and attack.

Yeah 90% of local will be docked up farmers but the Justified Chaos or Villore Accords guys will come once the farmers cry for help and try to drive you out.

Sotf pilots - is the currently circulating rumor true?
If you don't know what I'm talking about - I guess it's not true. If you do - good chance it is.
Yes or No answer is fine.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#85 - 2013-02-22 03:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
IbanezLaney wrote:


That way defending the plex by PvPing is rewarded but not so exploitable you can just close plexes with alts.
Naturally rookie ships, shuttles or ships with more than 1 empty slot being killed should not effect the timer at all.

Or -

Base the bonus on isk killed - maybe 2 min per 10 mil killed in a novice (based on Jita averages)
So unfit alts ships will do nothing if people decide to try and exploit the system - It would be easy to make it cost more to exploit then the LP reward would total.



Either it's cheap enough that you kill alts to capture plexes, or your alternate means that any plex where people really want and there is a large fleet fight going on in will get closed pretty much instantly by whoever gets the first few kills.

I'd love a pvp system for this, but every one I've ever seen is massively exploitable, or it's just not workable,
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#86 - 2013-02-22 06:47:37 UTC
chatgris wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:


That way defending the plex by PvPing is rewarded but not so exploitable you can just close plexes with alts.
Naturally rookie ships, shuttles or ships with more than 1 empty slot being killed should not effect the timer at all.

Or -

Base the bonus on isk killed - maybe 2 min per 10 mil killed in a novice (based on Jita averages)
So unfit alts ships will do nothing if people decide to try and exploit the system - It would be easy to make it cost more to exploit then the LP reward would total.



Either it's cheap enough that you kill alts to capture plexes, or your alternate means that any plex where people really want and there is a large fleet fight going on in will get closed pretty much instantly by whoever gets the first few kills.

I'd love a pvp system for this, but every one I've ever seen is massively exploitable, or it's just not workable,



Thinking of all the exploits is tough.

That's why I was thinking 60% max time bonus.

That way if you have run the 1st 40% of the timer and say 3 enemy come - and you kill all 3 of them without losing any ships you would cap the plex - which in my thinking is ok.

If they kill one of yours and you kill 3 of theirs -you would still need to have run 60% of the timer.

The more ships that come and fight - the more epic it would be fighting over the timer as it jumps back and forward when ships pop from either side.


An IP address check would do wonders.
If the killed ship is from the same IP address as the killer or the account has the same owner = no time bonus.
I'm rubbish at programming but even I could make that work with a few simple lines of code so for CCP it should be very simple.

Won't stop 2 people in different locations doing it but having 2 do it makes it much less economical to exploit as the max benefit of the exploit would only be approx 10% over the people playing properly.
One you add ship costs and fitting = no real benefit.

10min-60%=4min
So 2 people exploiting still = 8 min play time combined and they have to spit the profit.
+ LP can't be simply transferred right after earning it making it less attractive to exploit between 2 people as trust is non existent in eve.

Damn this idea is looking ok tbh.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#87 - 2013-02-22 06:58:30 UTC
Seraph Castillon
In Control
#88 - 2013-02-22 08:04:35 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:

What "griefing" are you referring to?

I think a binary reset is actually pretty fair - it allows FW opponents and neutrals to work together and hurt cloaky/stabbed plex farmers and people who use opposing faction alts in a plex (i.e. your gallente main and caldari alt are parked in the same gallente defensive plex, with the caldari alt 100km away. if I drive your main off, you lose the plex instantly), hopefully driving them out of faction war, especially in "off-peak" timezones such as after DT.

Forcing neutrals and FW players to wait for 2-3 mins in a plex to hurt a plex farmer doesn't seem like it'd be fun for either party.


Binary reset is not fair. If you have a fleet in system that can react in say one or two minutes you need to have time to use that force. If the initial person in the complex is forced out and the timer resets instantly then how is that fair when you have what it takes to take on those who forced you out and are ready to do so?
You need to think further than just the cloaked alts. Every changed made also affects the actual fighting players.

I also don't think this concept shouldn't apply to defenders at all, partly because of the aforementioned time lock trick, partly because defending is enough of a drag anyway.

On a different subject: if I'm reading between the lines correctly you seem to be going towards the idea of not letting neutrals dock in FW space again. We all know that CCP won't do that.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#89 - 2013-02-22 09:48:32 UTC
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#90 - 2013-02-22 12:35:59 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.


Have to agree with this one. Since when did any military entity allow a neutral to randomly show up and observe their operations without being escorted off or dealt with in more explosive means? In fact I feel this would do wonders for the current mechanic...no longer have to sit there and wait for the guy to aggro on me before I can go on him and I am sure many in FW would agree to this point.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
#91 - 2013-02-22 14:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Guerrilla
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.

You're in FW. Which takes place in lowsec. There's also neutrals in lowsec. Deal with it.

Since they remade crimewatch, there's no reason to keep a positive sec status anyway.

pew pew
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#92 - 2013-02-22 14:22:58 UTC
Morgan Torry wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.


Have to agree with this one. Since when did any military entity allow a neutral to randomly show up and observe their operations without being escorted off or dealt with in more explosive means? In fact I feel this would do wonders for the current mechanic...no longer have to sit there and wait for the guy to aggro on me before I can go on him and I am sure many in FW would agree to this point.


That makes sense for a roleplay perspective if it is your installation. If its not your base, then not so much.

From a gameplay perspective it makes allot of sense since people who want the big wardec probably don't want to lose sec status in order to fight for occupancy.

Perhaps we could give the roleplay justification that these deadspace zones are contested and not yet under the contol of either side and so fights inside are treated like null sec with regard to sec status.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Maximus Hashur
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-02-22 14:24:02 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
Maximus Hashur wrote:
The current system requires a concerted and dedicated effort by one side or the other to gain dominance.

It's obvious to me the OP is a little short sighted and does not grasp "bigger picture" meta gaming which is what FW truly is.


You are short-sighted too, since you obviously haven't been playing the meta game in full.

For the most part there is no dedicated offensive effort. There are just alot of people looking to make some money out of a system that is an easy alternative to running missions in hisec. These people and NOT the dedicated people are the main drive of FW. That is wrong.
Currently the main drive of FW Sovereignty changes are solo complex farmers. These characters are either people that have no affiliation with FW or lowsec in general or they are (the alts of) people in militia.

Yes FW should provide an income to those that are in it. No FW should not provide an income to those that are only in it because of that income and have no further interest in the FW meta-game. Note that I consider killing hostile militia as enough to qualify.

What's wrong with the current system is quite simply that it takes at least one combat ready, defensive player to deny a 1 week old (alt) character from farming in said system. If you keep in mind that some of these farmers run 2-3 accounts you can see that this truely is a problem.
The attacker (in the form of a farmer who doesn't even care about the FW meta-game) has the advantage that he can attack any system at any time (just pick an empty one) and that he can choose not to fight whenever he wants and move to the next system. The attacker does not loose anything by backing out of a fight.
The defender needs to be everywhere, all the time and needs to actively police and close all plexes in all systems he wants to keep. He gets marginal rewards from the system for doing so, this means FARMERS DO NOT DEFEND. If he backs out of a fight he could be one step closer to loosing his home.
And why is the defender defending? Not for the income, he hardly gets any if he does his job right. In all but a few systems not to defend his home either. The defender is essentially defending so farmers on his side can make more money. That is just messed up.

Alot of good efforts have been made in FW and I think we've come too close to something that is acceptable to stop now.

The only thing that remains to be done is to kick out the people who are only in FW to make money.



No i do understand the Meta game. My point was that for either side to gain territory there needs to be a concerted effort in the form of organized fleets operating on a regular basis to both repel "farmers" as well as WT offensive fleets, and to go on the offensive themselves and start taking enemy plexes. This needs to be across all time zones - something that is very tough to accomplish. What your describing above is relatively accurate to describe the current landscape, but it is part of the war. I say again, for any one side to make progress they need to be able to recruit and field a regular force that can patrol whole sections of space.

If anything, this is the issue. The lack of organized participation.

That's just my opinion of course. I'm out there every day, its pretty much the only thing i do in this game now and i have been in both the Gal/Cal theatre and over in the Amarr/Min theatre. Its the same in both areas. Whoever can field the largest fleets being used in the most effective manner, more often are the ones who gain dominance.

The Caldari had to bring a null sec corp into the game to gain dominance and those people proceeded to steamroll us because they fielded regular offensive fleets that Gal could not break. Point proven.

Looked up...saw this F***ING clown dropping like a rock.  Woke up in Vylade wondering what just happened!!!
Maximus Hashur
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-02-22 14:32:59 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.



yes this. it sucks having to wait for them to aggress before I can defend myself. Im down to -2.8 because of this. I don't wait for them to aggress because it often means a loss for me

Looked up...saw this F***ING clown dropping like a rock.  Woke up in Vylade wondering what just happened!!!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#95 - 2013-02-22 14:36:17 UTC
chatgris wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:


That way defending the plex by PvPing is rewarded but not so exploitable you can just close plexes with alts.
Naturally rookie ships, shuttles or ships with more than 1 empty slot being killed should not effect the timer at all.

Or -

Base the bonus on isk killed - maybe 2 min per 10 mil killed in a novice (based on Jita averages)
So unfit alts ships will do nothing if people decide to try and exploit the system - It would be easy to make it cost more to exploit then the LP reward would total.



Either it's cheap enough that you kill alts to capture plexes, or your alternate means that any plex where people really want and there is a large fleet fight going on in will get closed pretty much instantly by whoever gets the first few kills.

I'd love a pvp system for this, but every one I've ever seen is massively exploitable, or it's just not workable,


I think some sort of small instant timer set back - capped at neutral would be ok. If A keeps getting chased out of plexes by B we don't want A to be more effective at winning occupancy than B.

If the timer just rolls back when A warps off to start running another then B will have to decide to either stay in this plex and run it or keep chasing A. If he chases A he can keep A from running plexes but all his time will be wasted too.

A small immediate countback of say 90 seconds (capped at neutral) that happens if you warp or cloak when someone is on grid or on grid with your accell gate - in addition to the timer count back would solve this.

The only way alts would come into play is if the timer was already favoring the enemy. Then you would need to warp out and get your enemy alt in the plex. Then you would need to warp back in and chase your enemy alt out. I think that will be a bit more work than 90 seconds is worth.


But I wonder if CCP is even going to do any sort of timer countback. They may conclude that the fw participants are happy with the current set up so why do anything?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#96 - 2013-02-22 14:57:16 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Personally I would prefer it, if it was worse if you warp off when someone lands on grid with you or the accel gate, before you warp. That way if someone leaves because they are looking for pvp they won't be unduly punished.


Adding a grace period (say 10 minutes) before the countdown and making the countdown 2-4x as slow as a a player contesting the plex would be the fairest way to do it. That way d-plexing is still the best way to plex down a site.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#97 - 2013-02-22 15:02:15 UTC
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.

You're in FW. Which takes place in lowsec. There's also neutrals in lowsec. Deal with it.

Since they remade crimewatch, there's no reason to keep a positive sec status anyway.


Except some people enjoy entering hisec. Whether to travel to their market hub or perform hisec raids in enemy held territory. I have no issue whatsoever fighting neutrals, but I think it's bunk that I am forced to lose sec because I have to engage them first in my kitey ship so they don't get web/scram or abandon my plex. Or vice versa, sitting @ zero on the warp in with a brawler, neutral comes in and I allow him to kite me because I wait for him to engage.

The change wouldn't effect gameplay in anyway and wouldn't penalize the faction warfare player from defending himself inside a warzone.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#98 - 2013-02-22 15:18:33 UTC
Gah'Matar wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Personally I would prefer it, if it was worse if you warp off when someone lands on grid with you or the accel gate, before you warp. That way if someone leaves because they are looking for pvp they won't be unduly punished.


Adding a grace period (say 10 minutes) before the countdown and making the countdown 2-4x as slow as a a player contesting the plex would be the fairest way to do it. That way d-plexing is still the best way to plex down a site.



I usually understand the term "dplexing" to mean defensive plexing. Not bringing the plex timer back to zero. I might be wrong on that but I just want to be sure what you mean.

If I am understanding what you mean by a 10 minute grace period, I think it would pretty destroy the effect of the rollbacks. As would slowing the countback. Very rarely are the pvpers going to sit around in a plex waiting for over 10 minutes. Meanwhile the alts can just keep hopping plex to plex like they do now.

Although maybe give the grace period if no neutral or enemy ships are on grid with you or the accell gate when you leave/cloak. That would be good.

I think the instant docking of a minute or 2 would be good otherwise the plexing alt can just cloak and wait - like they do now and would have very little harm.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#99 - 2013-02-22 16:47:31 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.

You're in FW. Which takes place in lowsec. There's also neutrals in lowsec. Deal with it.

Since they remade crimewatch, there's no reason to keep a positive sec status anyway.


Except some people enjoy entering hisec. Whether to travel to their market hub or perform hisec raids in enemy held territory. I have no issue whatsoever fighting neutrals, but I think it's bunk that I am forced to lose sec because I have to engage them first in my kitey ship so they don't get web/scram or abandon my plex. Or vice versa, sitting @ zero on the warp in with a brawler, neutral comes in and I allow him to kite me because I wait for him to engage.

The change wouldn't effect gameplay in anyway and wouldn't penalize the faction warfare player from defending himself inside a warzone.



Ok now you just made it so the neutral has to wait for you to attack because of the special pvp advantage you want to create for fw players. You can attack neutrals with no sec status hit, but they cant attack you?

At least now the rules are the same for everyone. If you want to attack a neutral that has a sec status above -5 then you take a sec hit. It applies to fw players attacking neutrals and it applies to neutrals attacking fw players.

I think ccp should allow people to attack eachother in fw plexes but not give the advantage to any specific groups. Just make it so inside a plex its like null sec with respect to sec status.

Outside the plexes its the same rules as now.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#100 - 2013-02-22 17:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dread Operative
Cearain wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
I still think neutrals that come into plexs, should get a warning and then a limited engagement with whomever is in the plex. They obviously came in for a fight, and the mechanics should allow them to be engaged without losing sec.

You're in FW. Which takes place in lowsec. There's also neutrals in lowsec. Deal with it.

Since they remade crimewatch, there's no reason to keep a positive sec status anyway.


Except some people enjoy entering hisec. Whether to travel to their market hub or perform hisec raids in enemy held territory. I have no issue whatsoever fighting neutrals, but I think it's bunk that I am forced to lose sec because I have to engage them first in my kitey ship so they don't get web/scram or abandon my plex. Or vice versa, sitting @ zero on the warp in with a brawler, neutral comes in and I allow him to kite me because I wait for him to engage.

The change wouldn't effect gameplay in anyway and wouldn't penalize the faction warfare player from defending himself inside a warzone.



Ok now you just made it so the neutral has to wait for you to attack because of the special pvp advantage you want to create for fw players. You can attack neutrals with no sec status hit, but they cant attack you?

At least now the rules are the same for everyone. If you want to attack a neutral that has a sec status above -5 then you take a sec hit. It applies to fw players attacking neutrals and it applies to neutrals attacking fw players.

I think ccp should allow people to attack eachother in fw plexes but not give the advantage to any specific groups. Just make it so inside a plex its like null sec with respect to sec status.

Outside the plexes its the same rules as now.


Not if you both have limited engamgments. No sec status hit either way and would promote more fights in plexs do to no loss of sec status. Also, a neutral enters plex LOOKING for a fight, there is no other reason for a non FW pilot to enter a plex, so the FW player is stuck with the choices of sec loss, being engaged first to their disadvantage, or fleeing. Both players given limited engagements while inside the plex would put the FW pilot and neut on equal ground.