These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Drake wtf?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#61 - 2013-02-22 13:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
EDIT for DRONES
So, Liangs:

HAM XL ASB Cyclone Brawl vs a standard Buffer, LSE II/Invuln/3x Damage Mod Drake.

Straight up brawl at 0, with the Drake firing Rage Kinetic, while the Cyclone fires Rage EMP.

The Cyclone has 36K Buffer with 40 DPS Peak Passive Recharge vs Kinetic.
The Drake has about 65K Buffer with 105 Peak Passive Recharge vs EMP.

Cyclone deals 623 DPS.
Drake deals 720 DPS.

Cyclone holds 9 Boosters in ASB that are expended in 45 seconds, then needs a 60 second reload.
While running the ASB, it tanks 750 DPS/sec, and probably holds around 36 Boosters in cargo.

So, First 45 seconds:
The Cyclone is essentially 'impervious' - its boosting repairing slightly more than the incoming DPS.
Drake, on the other hand - after 45 seconds takes (lets be generous) 550 damage/sec, accounting for some passive recharge - reducing its EHP by 25K. (out of 65K)

Next 60 seconds:
While the Booster is reloading, the Drake gets 60 seconds to chew up the Cyclone's buffer dealing, say 700 DPS - accounting for some small Passive Regen. Dealing...42K Damage out of 36K.

Of course, (assuming the Cyclone survived the next 60 seconds - which it doesn't) the Cyclone is firing back, dealing a further 33K Damage to the Drake.

But it appears the Cyclone still dies, long before the Drake.
I understand you can pulse the booster for a bit more efficiency, but it certainly appears as if the Cyclone is ripped apart while attempting to reload its ASB.
The Cyclone is more mobile and can move away, but its own weapons are impacted by this as well - and not likely to get too far if locked in at close range with webs/scrams/disruptors.

I'm not factoring overheating on either offense or defense, as it grants large benefits to both sides.

Am I missing something?

EDITED FOR DRONES, additional Cyclone DPS still does not change outcome, though its a closer fight.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#62 - 2013-02-22 13:39:48 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Am I missing something?



Yes. Drones. Come on...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#63 - 2013-02-22 13:46:02 UTC
As a side note, you could use use EM, thermal and kinetic rigs instead of 2x EM, 1x thermal - that's a perfectly reasonable fitting strategy that will help against the Drake (and Brutix).

If you need more DPS, there's also the option to drop the small neuts for guns. This may leave you more vulnerable against frigates - but this is a good thing. It's absurd to expect the same fit to be effective in almost all circumstances.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#64 - 2013-02-22 13:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Gypsio III wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Am I missing something?



Yes. Drones. Come on...


Good call, had them on all the other ships, forgot to add them on the Cyclone. Refiguring the math to see how much it matters.

EDIT: Seems like it doesn't change the outcome. Simplified calculation of Passive Defense of course and by pulsing the XL ASB you might be able to 'draw-out' the initial 45 seconds...a bit. (Reinforced defense 775 vs 720 Incoming DPS) But not enough to kill the Drake first.

The Cyclone's buffer has to survive at least 60 seconds while still getting a decent return against the Drake's Passive Tank.

Even factoring in the Neuts, they only come into play at extreme close range - and don't really come into play until after 2 minutes and 30 seconds, to even have a chance to occasionally shut off the Hardeners - and the should be over by then.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#65 - 2013-02-22 13:59:46 UTC
To compute the numbers with an ASB, you shouldn't consider it as tanking for some second but as a plain buffer added over time. The ehp/s of the ASB being superior to the dps of the Drake, each hp the ASB can provide can be used. That will provide a defined number of ehp (980*9 (cycles)*1,1 (overload)*1,36 (SBA) + resists = tons of ehp) renewable every 60 + 9*5*0,85 (overload) seconds.

Not overloading an ASB is completely stupid.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#66 - 2013-02-22 14:06:33 UTC
Don't fit neuts then, use 220 mm ACs and use the kinetic rig. Straight

I show a Drake with 67.7k EHP (damage-type adjusted) and 726 DPS, agaisnt a Cyclone with 694 DPS and 40.3k EHP, with the ASB giving 44.1k EHP from its ASB charges (non-overheated).

TTD: Drake 98 s, Cyclone 116 s. Easy.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#67 - 2013-02-22 14:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
To compute the numbers with an ASB, you shouldn't consider it as tanking for some second but as a plain buffer added over time. The ehp/s of the ASB being superior to the dps of the Drake, each hp the ASB can provide can be used. That will provide a defined number of ehp (980*9 (cycles)*1,1 (overload)*1,36 (SBA) + resists = tons of ehp) renewable every 60 + 9*5*0,85 (overload) seconds.

Not overloading an ASB is completely stupid.


I guess that is what I meant when I meant by 'pulsing' your ASB.

Just running the ASB flat out from 0 to 45 seconds is wasteful as you lose your 'shield surplus'.
BUT, that shield surplus is very small in this case. I can't see those 45 seconds being 'stretched' very far.

Extra 50 shield surplus/sec over 45 seconds = 2200 EHP, or only about 3 seconds of Drake-fire.

I intentionally neglected overloading because the Drake, also can overload its Hardeners and reap a huge dividend.
(Increases EHP from 65K to 73K, with greater Passive recharge)
Conversely, Overheating the Cyclones Invuln only improves its buffer from 36-37K EHP...not enough to stop the 60 second onslaught while the ASB is reloading.

Comparable to overheating the XL ASB? Dunno, but 2x Invulns spaced out on a Drake can run hot for a very long time, far more so than a full rack of weapons which burn each other out in less than a minute.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#68 - 2013-02-22 14:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Problem is that overloading provide much more to the Cyclone than to the Drake. Do the math with all mid overloaded, and you'll see the Cyclone able to overcome the reload of its ASB. The Drake cannot survive another 9 cycles of ASB.

Here my numbers :
drake
75704 vs EM (every mid overloaded)
129,59 peak

cyclone
37673 vs kin (every mid overloadd)
1082,28 ehp/s vs kin
4,25*9 = 38,25s (ASB 9 cycles overloaded)
==> 41397,21 vs kin ehp provided by the ASB
79070,21 ehp total the Drake have to grind before end of reload

Liang dps values :
Drake DPS: 818/60 sec + 707
Cyclone DPS: 705/60 sec + 623

Time through buffer of the Cyclone : 53 s

TTL for Cyclone : 102 s
TTL for Drake : 113 s
(not accounting passive regen)

Cyclone should die.
Very tough fight though and there must be a fit for the Cyclone to beat this Drake without kin hardener

Edit : numbers were previously wrong ; should be fine now
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-02-22 14:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
@ Herr Wilkus, would you mind place the entire fittings of your test and are these test calculations or simulated battles online?
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#70 - 2013-02-22 14:56:17 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Don't fit neuts then, use 220 mm ACs and use the kinetic rig. Straight

I show a Drake with 67.7k EHP (damage-type adjusted) and 726 DPS, agaisnt a Cyclone with 694 DPS and 40.3k EHP, with the ASB giving 44.1k EHP from its ASB charges (non-overheated).

TTD: Drake 98 s, Cyclone 116 s. Easy.


Well, you have to factor in the Drakes 100+/sec Peak Passive Regen somehow....


OK, lets give you the 220MMs and the Kinetic Rig.
If you run the XL Booster 45 seconds flat out, you generate a shield surplus of about 320 EHP per sec.

So, 14.4K 'extra EHP' - which the Drake chews through (at 700DPS/sec, (discounting a bit for Cyclones small passive regen) in about 20 seconds.

OK, so your Cyclone is 'reinforced' for effectively 65 seconds.

In that 65 seconds you are dealing 700 DPS against the Drake. But wait - we have to discount a bit - the larger Drake Passive regen is wiping out some of your damage each second. Not Peak Rate the whole time - but lets say 75/sec.

625 DPS over 65 seconds - 40.6K out of 65K.
After the boosters are expended, the Drake kills in around 55 seconds or so (due to larger buffer because of kinetic rig)

Cyclone, given 55 seconds, does an additional 34K - indeed, More than enough to kill the Drake first.

SO, it appears that Liang's fit falls a bit short.
However if you tack on Autocannons firing EMP AND allow for aRig Kinetic, you CAN - barely - beat the Passive Drake.

This is, of course, neglecting overheating on both sides.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#71 - 2013-02-22 15:40:01 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
This is, of course, neglecting overheating on both sides.

When overheating make the difference in the outcome, you can't neglect it.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#72 - 2013-02-22 15:47:19 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
@ Herr Wilkus, would you mind place the entire fittings of your test and are these test calculations or simulated battles online?


Just EFT calculations with some rounding and simplifications for accounting for effects like Passive defense (which is variable depending on where your shields are.) LvL V skills. Should be accurate enough to determine if a fight is a complete mismatch or not (as in the case of the Drake vs the Cane or Harbinger.)
Drake vs Brutix is less clear, my calculations put the Drake on top, but I hadn't tried one of the fancy new Paste Reppers on it yet.

Drake is mainly just a standard DC II + 3 Damage mods, Tackle,Web,MWD, LSE II, INV II x2, and Extender Rigs. No tricks, no metagaming, blasting away with Kinetic.

Cyclone was what Liang posted, and modified according to Gypsio. (it might be in another thread about hurricanes)

EMP is typically the best thing to use against Drakes, so that was used.

Overheating effectsI try to neglect because there is a certain degree of random involved. You generally overheat as long as you can get away with it, then shut it off at the last second.

But: Take the 220MM AC/Kinetic Rig 'best case' GypsioIII fit.

Factor in overheating:
The other fellow has a point I hadn't noticed however - an overheated XL ASB seems to pay some major dividends. Assuming you can safely overheat it for 9 cycles (dunno, but sounds quite possible) it allows you to extend your ASB 'reinforced' period for almost 40 seconds - 45 if the Invuln is Overheated as well.

Suppose the Drake overheats its Invulns: Buffer goes up to 75K EHP, Peak Passive Regen up to 130.

Given 85 seconds of XL Booster fun, you can deal, 51K damage (out of 75K) to the Drake (600 DPS or so, accounting for some passive regen).

XL Booster starts reloading and Cyclone's Buffer is eroded at 700 DPS (also discounting for a bit of passive regen.)
If the Cyclone kicks a 40.5K Buffer, its gone 57 seconds into the reload cycle.
But the Drake doesn't have 57 seconds, it dies in 40 seconds. (Probably a bit sooner, because Passive Recharge effectively goes away once into Armor/Hull)

WITHOUT the ACs or the Kinetic Rig, both ships overheating their tank - its very close, Cyclone appears to edge the Drake very slightly.

Of course, the Drake gets a 110 DPS advantage for burning its Guns too, while the Cyclone only gets 80DPS. At this point, things are appear close enough that it could make a difference.

Its also important to note that the Cyclone requires significantly more micro management, which can lead to missed clicks, wasted cycles or other erros.