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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-02-22 04:03:47 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Yup


Read what he said.

/thread.

Hello, hello again.
Tesal
#42 - 2013-02-22 04:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tesal
Degren wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Yup


Read what he said.

/thread.


I did read it and responded in kind.

*edit: My link is more recent and is an official CCP statement.*
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#43 - 2013-02-22 05:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tesal wrote:
Degren wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Yup


Read what he said.

/thread.


I did read it and responded in kind.

*edit: My link is more recent and is an official CCP statement.*


Actually, it's a link to some guy quoting the CSM minutes and failing to quote CCP's clarification. (Which entirely undermines your "point.")

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2494811#post2494811

Oops


Also, fixing POSes is only one part of the changes that will need to happen to fix Nullsec industry, so even if they weren't planning on revamping POSes (which is false), what's posted on the whiteboard would still prove your claim (that Nullsec industry is fine) wrong.

Of course, any experience trying to run industry competitively in Nullsec would also prove you wrong, but v0v.


The key to making it possible to make Nullsec competitive is to remove from the market the perfectly efficient competitor that has unlimited volume and replace it with a competitor that is not literally perfect.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-02-22 05:31:15 UTC
Dasola wrote:
Dont let these nerf highsec threads bother you. CCP knows full well if they nerf highsec they are going to loose a lot paying gamers.. Not everyone wants to move to nullsec or lowsec even if they would get buffed seriously.

But thats the best part of eve, it has 4 distinct gameing area for different player types. Highsec, lowsec, nullsec and wormhole space. All these require little different type of players.



Nullsec is mostly about war, ok its too damn peacefull currently, but sooner or later big war will break out somewhere there.
Someone will be bored enough to consider going to war just to get change of pace for while.

Lowsec is about faction warfare and piracy

Highsec is about industry and misison running

Wormhole space is about adventure, can you survive in difficult enviroment where even logistics is challenge?



Yes i do believe nullsec and lowsec could use some more developer attention and ideas to make them more interesting. But when does CCP get arround to do it? Who knows, They have a lot of things needing fixing and iterations in work list.



Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space?

You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV?

They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-02-22 08:34:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday.
Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.


Only in the case of industry, because CCP foolishly allowed 100% refine rates and essentially free and infinite manufacturing slots in highsec.
For the poor logistics, these are either a feature of nullsec, or a bug. In the latter case, just change nullsec.
Kate stark
#46 - 2013-02-22 09:04:44 UTC
Takseen wrote:
100% refine rates


i'm not sure changing that would really solve anything.

all that would happen is the low end mineral supply would decrease, pushing up it's price, making high sec mining worth more isk/hour and putting the final nail in the coffin for null sec mining. if anything, the answer is increasing supply, preferably from outside high sec sources, eg spod/gneiss providing more low ends.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-22 13:51:07 UTC
Max Doobie wrote:


Didn't they just add some weird ass route lines to the screen when travelling in space?
You mean THOSE kind of things take precedence over things like SOV?
They aren't all that busy, they just really could give a damn about it. They'd rather have cool color lines in space.


If there isn't a name for this fallacy yet, there should be. A guy has some time left over after doing some major project, he can't just "go work on SOV" for a day or two and come up with any meaningful results. What he does have for, is an itty bitty little feature that is generally quite popular.

Fixing SOV in a way that minimises the amount of disruption and nullbear tears is a way bigger mutli-person expansion level commitment.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-02-22 13:54:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday.
Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.


You might as well be talking to an actual brick wall when trying to penetrate high sec layers self interest.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#49 - 2013-02-22 13:56:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game.

This.


That.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-02-22 13:58:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game.

This.


That.


I'm not your Guy, buddy...

Crap, wrong meme, sorry.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2013-02-22 14:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Or you could just, y'now, buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in hisec.
No, you really couldn't, unless null industry gave you money when you installed a job rather than take some away (to offer greater affordability than highsec does); unless outposts offered materials teleportation to and from POSes and the like (to offer greater ease of use and logistics than highsec does); unless they also offered one-click movement to and from highsec trade hubs (again, to outweigh highsec logistics); unless both POSes and outposts were given several orders of magnitude more slots than they currently have (to outweigh the availability in highsec); and unless outpost and unless a system security of less than 0.1 automatically halved all materials and time requirements on all types of industry jobs…

…in other words, the only way to buff null industry to be on par or greater than that in highsec, is to make a system so exploitable that the economy collapses. The only way to be greater than perfect is to introduce legal duping exploits, and if I have to explain to you why this is a bad idea, I'm afraid you've just disqualified yourself from discussing the topic any further.

Quote:
Personally I think the low refinement rates and limited slots on POSs need to be brought up hisec NPC station standards as a minimum. In fact, making them work even better than NPC stations would be a good idea to offset all the expense and hassle of running a POS.
Not even remotely enough. Let's see if I can find that old list again…

1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons.
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 each).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4–8 / 24).
3. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
4. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.

Those are be bare minimum buffs required to make a single null system work on par with what you get from highsec. This still hasn't removed any of the costs or logistical hassles that come from having to bring stuff in from elsewhere. Those costs cannot be reduced to less than zero, so there's simply no way of being better than high in that regard. Thus, we have to increase the costs of highsec to give null a margin to operate within:

5. All NPC station industrial fees are increased by a factor of 1,000. (×500 to bring it up to POS expense level and make it worth-while to use those even in highsec, and another ×2 to pay for the inability to lose these capabilities).

6. PI-style import and export fees for base materials when transferring to and from NPC stations — the exact tariffs can be discussed, as can whether mineral compression should work around these expenses.

Again. That's the bare minimum for the two to be on par. From there on, null still needs to be buffed a bit (or high nerfed further) to provide a good separation between the two, and we haven't even begun to touch on the horrid mess of uselessness that are POSes.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-02-22 14:56:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Nullsec can't be fixed in isolation to the rest of the game.

This.


That.

Them.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#53 - 2013-02-22 15:37:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
So let's focus on talking about ways to fixing those problems. Let's focus on fixing the things that are actually broken for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday.
Ok. One of the main problems with null is the unbeatable baseline that highsec provides. That baseline has to come down to more reasonable levels in terms of availability, cost, ease of use and logistics.

Fixing null requires nerfing highsec, because highsec is one of the root causes of the problems with null.


You might as well be talking to an actual brick wall when trying to penetrate high sec layers self interest.


As opposed to null sec layers self interest? Or low sec layers self interest? or WH layers self interest? Or pvp layers self interest? Or pve layers self interest? Shall I go on?

Can always depend on GD posters to give the typical, "Our way is the REAL Eve.. you guys are playing it wrong... Nerf their area because our area sucks.." types of post.

Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap? I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-02-22 15:46:25 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?

well. what would you say about "high-sec industry can not produce T2 ships?"

You sure it can? Yes, it can. But it is up to you (i mean 0.0 sec) to make high-sec industry out of technetium (it is used only for example). It's up to you to make high-sec out of megacite, zydrine, etc...

Goons already shown that this can be done. It only needs :effort:.

Yes, yes. It's easier to ask CCP to do something instead of :sandbox:

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2013-02-22 15:54:48 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Why are so many people advocates of crapping in everyone else's sandbox because their sandbox is full of crap?
…which is why people get so confused when I make those suggestions, rather than the nullseccers Twisted

Quote:
I'm for an Eve where all 4 types of space can play and have fun without advocating killing Eve for others... sheesh you peeps are butt hurt.
But then again, the only ones really advocating killing EVE for others are the bears…
Zak Breen
Breen Enterprises
#56 - 2013-02-22 16:31:32 UTC
The fact that scamming and ganking are legit 'careers' in EVE is sad.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of not knowing. http://www.di.fm/spacemusic
Kate stark
#57 - 2013-02-22 16:32:08 UTC
Zak Breen wrote:
The fact that scamming and ganking are legit 'careers' in EVE is sad.


actually, it's great. it's why i play this god forsaken game.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#58 - 2013-02-22 16:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
March rabbit wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

HS industry is literally perfect. It's Cheap, Risk Free, Has Virtually Unlimited Capacity and is Convenient. Without nerfing some of those, and without either creating an infinite free mineral faucet or breaking reprocessing forever, how do you propose making Nullsec industry competitive?

well. what would you say about "high-sec industry can not produce T2 ships?"

You sure it can? Yes, it can. But it is up to you (i mean 0.0 sec) to make high-sec industry out of technetium (it is used only for example). It's up to you to make high-sec out of megacite, zydrine, etc...

Goons already shown that this can be done. It only needs :effort:.

Yes, yes. It's easier to ask CCP to do something instead of :sandbox:


And if Nullsec were to stop exporting things to HS, how would it build anything? There are quite literally not enough manufacturing slots in Nullsec to build anywhere near what Nullsec consumes.

Let alone the fact that "trying to monopolize all the raw materials" != "being competitive."


There is literally no rational reason to do any serious manufacturing in Nullsec except for Supercaps (that can't be built elsewhere) and maybe mass battleships (transport costs, though eh...). None. The Game Mechanics guarantee this. And you don't see that as a problem?


By the way, you don't seem to understand how OTEC worked. It was a price fixing cartel exploiting the low elasticity of the Tech market, not a supply limiting cartel trying to create an artificial shortage. The previous attempts at a Tech cartel had all failed because they were trying to be the second type. You're suggesting the creation of the second type of cartel for every material.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#59 - 2013-02-22 17:16:27 UTC
High sec is ok, buff null.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2013-02-22 17:24:28 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
High sec is ok, buff null.

Highsec is not ok. It makes buffing null both futile and impossible.