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Remove sec status hit in FW plexes for FW pilots
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#41 - 2013-02-22 02:05:23 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


not sure if you read the OP... or maybe see my point.

this isn't about FW players receiving special treatment. that annotes entitlement to the wrong group.

this is about a warzone (in the form of a FW plex), in which certain people, namely nuetrals, are receiving special treatment. everyone else gets shot freely.

they come in knowing they will shoot a fw pilot, relying on the knowledge that a given pilot may not want to recieve a sec status hit, in order to aggress before they are aggressed. in a warzone. surely even you can see the stupidity.

this forces the fw pilot to make choices already outlined in the OP, that logically stand against the point of FW.

so you're half right. special treatment doesn't make sense. let's eliminate it.
But neutrals are not getting special treatment. They get a sec hit, if they are not at war with you, or you are above -5 sec. You are the one asking to be removed from the games aggression mechanics, because you think the FW label makes you special. It does not.

Yes you are in a warzone, but your war is with an opposing faction. The hint is in the name, FACTION WARFARE. If you were able to shoot neutrals it would be called Faction/Neutral warfare.

As far as neutrals being in that warzone is concerned, so what? No space should be off limits to other players in this game. The sandbox nature of the game gives them the right to be there, messing with your right to run the plex.

Either shoot first and accept the sec hit, or wait till they aggress.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2013-02-22 02:07:03 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


A neutral in a FW plex gains NOTHING from being the plex other than pvp (the singular rat drops very bad loot), therefore anyone in a plex thats not FW is there to shoot you.

why wait to be shot and killed rather than make the obvious decision to run/range/fight before the inevitable tackle comes.
Shocking I know, that people shoot people in this sandbox game we call Eve. Whod'a thunk it?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-02-22 02:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Mission runners/Fwers should be able to shoot neuts that come into their mission site/plex first without sec hit. Because the mission site/plex belong to them and nobody else should enter.Bear

I have a better idea. Let's make missions/FW closed instances.Big smile
Mag's
Azn Empire
#44 - 2013-02-22 02:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Agree with OP and I live in FW space but am nuetral.

Any fool can see how silly it is that I can enter a plex and shoot first or wait in a plex expecting the same.

And special treatment Mag's? LOL! If you don't think groups/sections of space are all treated differently, then you still don't get EVE at all.
I get Eve. It seems many special snowflake FW players, have problems in that area.

The space you are looking for that caters to your need for no security hits, is called null and WH. The rest of us that live in low sec, know the rules and live by them. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#45 - 2013-02-22 04:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
sabre906 wrote:
Mission runners/Fwers should be able to shoot neuts that come into their mission site/plex first without sec hit. Because the mission site/plex belong to them and nobody else should enter.Bear

I have a better idea. Let's make missions/FW closed instances.Big smile


why is that so hard to understand? Militia members lose sec status to pirates and roaming gangs. This does not make sense - doesn't matter how you twist it. Nobody has ANYTHING against more targets to shoot but losing sec status to pirates in FW complexes is not cool. Neutrals have no business in plexes, if they enter they want to fight, they can get the fight but without sec status hit for us.

FW warzone is a popular area for roaming fleets - they know that they will get always fights. Your missions you mentioned have nothing to do with this.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#46 - 2013-02-22 04:40:34 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Agree with OP and I live in FW space but am nuetral.

Any fool can see how silly it is that I can enter a plex and shoot first or wait in a plex expecting the same.

And special treatment Mag's? LOL! If you don't think groups/sections of space are all treated differently, then you still don't get EVE at all.
I get Eve. It seems many special snowflake FW players, have problems in that area.

null and wspace is offtopic since crimewatch is turned off. If it would be turned off in plexes too this thread would not exist

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#47 - 2013-02-22 13:38:07 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Mission runners/Fwers should be able to shoot neuts that come into their mission site/plex first without sec hit. Because the mission site/plex belong to them and nobody else should enter.Bear

I have a better idea. Let's make missions/FW closed instances.Big smile


why is that so hard to understand? Militia members lose sec status to pirates and roaming gangs. This does not make sense - doesn't matter how you twist it. Nobody has ANYTHING against more targets to shoot but losing sec status to pirates in FW complexes is not cool. Neutrals have no business in plexes, if they enter they want to fight, they can get the fight but without sec status hit for us.

FW warzone is a popular area for roaming fleets - they know that they will get always fights. Your missions you mentioned have nothing to do with this.


Why is that so hard to understand? Because you are making no sense. It is low sec. If you can't handle it then don't go there. This entire post is full of garbage.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#48 - 2013-02-22 14:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Onomerous wrote:
Why is that so hard to understand? Because you are making no sense. It is low sec. If you can't handle it then don't go there. This entire post is full of garbage.


another brilliantly made point. you make no sense and you're garbage.

i'm surprised the white house doesn't use this sort of argument in foreign policy.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#49 - 2013-02-22 15:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Mag's wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


not sure if you read the OP... or maybe see my point.

this isn't about FW players receiving special treatment. that annotes entitlement to the wrong group.

this is about a warzone (in the form of a FW plex), in which certain people, namely nuetrals, are receiving special treatment. everyone else gets shot freely.

they come in knowing they will shoot a fw pilot, relying on the knowledge that a given pilot may not want to recieve a sec status hit, in order to aggress before they are aggressed. in a warzone. surely even you can see the stupidity.

this forces the fw pilot to make choices already outlined in the OP, that logically stand against the point of FW.

so you're half right. special treatment doesn't make sense. let's eliminate it.
But neutrals are not getting special treatment. They get a sec hit, if they are not at war with you, or you are above -5 sec. You are the one asking to be removed from the games aggression mechanics, because you think the FW label makes you special. It does not.

Yes you are in a warzone, but your war is with an opposing faction. The hint is in the name, FACTION WARFARE. If you were able to shoot neutrals it would be called Faction/Neutral warfare.

As far as neutrals being in that warzone is concerned, so what? No space should be off limits to other players in this game. The sandbox nature of the game gives them the right to be there, messing with your right to run the plex.

Either shoot first and accept the sec hit, or wait till they aggress.


I should have been more blunt. The point i was making Mags is that special is a relative term, not an argument.

Your argument that no space is off limits to players is a very red herring, as I've not posted about restricting anyone from anything. The question is whether or not a nuetral that enters a warzone plex is protected by Concord? This is a sec status question, not a question of restriction.

Let's see if we can find some precedent somehwere regarding status... the Geneva convention? It seems that goverments don't recognize rights of thieves on the battlefield. If you're a bad man, and you go to Somalia, and you run up to UN forces and try to shoot a few of them and grab whatever falls out of their pocket before running off... Guess what? No one gives a **** if you're shot tring to do it. Martial law is in effect in a warzone and no one is going to jail for shooting you. They'd be awarded not judged.

Now... that's seems farily simple and logical to me. The opposing argument is yes, a pilot should be able to enter a battlefield, march right up to Faction Militia forces, fighting a Concord sanctioned war, in a warzone, in low-sec, and shoot the little green Army men without the little green Army men being able to defend themselves first.

Sound silly to anyone else? I think CCP can make more rational gameplay here by simply saying, if you're in a warzone, it's kill or be killed. Just like those special snowflakes in Null. Or W space. Or wherever whomever can be shot freely.
Ak'athra J'ador
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-02-22 15:29:38 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


A neutral in a FW plex gains NOTHING from being the plex other than pvp (the singular rat drops very bad loot), therefore anyone in a plex thats not FW is there to shoot you.

why wait to be shot and killed rather than make the obvious decision to run/range/fight before the inevitable tackle comes.
Shocking I know, that people shoot people in this sandbox game we call Eve. Whod'a thunk it?


You missed the point dude. Hocus Focus.
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#51 - 2013-02-22 15:46:04 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Why is that so hard to understand? Because you are making no sense. It is low sec. If you can't handle it then don't go there. This entire post is full of garbage.


another brilliantly made point. you make no sense and you're garbage.

i'm surprised the white house doesn't use this sort of argument in foreign policy.


A bammy voter are you?

It is low sec. You attack, you get sec hit. How hard is that to understand? Being FW means the rules change?
Ak'athra J'ador
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-02-22 15:47:55 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Agree with OP and I live in FW space but am nuetral.

Any fool can see how silly it is that I can enter a plex and shoot first or wait in a plex expecting the same.

And special treatment Mag's? LOL! If you don't think groups/sections of space are all treated differently, then you still don't get EVE at all.
I get Eve. It seems many special snowflake FW players, have problems in that area.

The space you are looking for that caters to your need for no security hits, is called null and WH. The rest of us that live in low sec, know the rules and live by them. Blink


It's Low-sec dude. Low-sec is a grey area that sure isn't perfect. FW has some grey areas that sure aren't perfect.

I don't think you're trying to make the argument that these rules are immutable, or perfect and shouldn't change.. the point in this post seems to be that you live in low-sec an know the rules? And that FW players are special snowflakes? That's it? That's your argument against 'special treatment'? Wow. Well congrats on knowing the rules. I'm in awe.

Seriously, at least the OP makes a pretty compelling argument for sanity. After reading your posts, I can't tell if you're trolling or just defensive.

Oh and btw - please with the snowflake comment. Maybe name calling works at your playground in real life, and maybe that'll scare off would be posters that get bullied in playgrounds like yours, but you'll still need to make logical argument with real words if you want make a point here.

Special snowflakes? Scares me what you kids arent' learning in school. Trying making point, not an insult.
Alexandra Vyvourant
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-02-22 15:53:28 UTC
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


A neutral in a FW plex gains NOTHING from being the plex other than pvp (the singular rat drops very bad loot), therefore anyone in a plex thats not FW is there to shoot you.

why wait to be shot and killed rather than make the obvious decision to run/range/fight before the inevitable tackle comes.
Shocking I know, that people shoot people in this sandbox game we call Eve. Whod'a thunk it?


You missed the point dude. Hocus Focus.


lawl. pwned.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#54 - 2013-02-22 17:02:20 UTC
Onomerous wrote:

It is low sec. You attack, you get sec hit. How hard is that to understand? Being FW means the rules change?

neutrals attack by entering a FW plex. They do not get a sec status hit. Thats what the thread is about.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Mag's
Azn Empire
#55 - 2013-02-22 19:06:08 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
Your argument that no space is off limits to players is a very red herring, as I've not posted about restricting anyone from anything. The question is whether or not a nuetral that enters a warzone plex is protected by Concord? This is a sec status question, not a question of restriction.
It's you asking for a restriction from the penalty of a sec hit, for shooting neutrals. Which is special treatment. Just because the FW label is on it, doesn't and shouldn't exclude you from penalties regarding neutrals. It's FW, not FNW.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#56 - 2013-02-22 19:06:50 UTC
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Or don't engage neutrals, if you don't want the sec hit. Therefore avoiding special treatment where is is not required, or necessary.


A neutral in a FW plex gains NOTHING from being the plex other than pvp (the singular rat drops very bad loot), therefore anyone in a plex thats not FW is there to shoot you.

why wait to be shot and killed rather than make the obvious decision to run/range/fight before the inevitable tackle comes.
Shocking I know, that people shoot people in this sandbox game we call Eve. Whod'a thunk it?


You missed the point dude. Hocus Focus.
Irony.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#57 - 2013-02-22 19:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
It's Low-sec dude. Low-sec is a grey area that sure isn't perfect. FW has some grey areas that sure aren't perfect.

I don't think you're trying to make the argument that these rules are immutable, or perfect and shouldn't change.. the point in this post seems to be that you live in low-sec an know the rules? And that FW players are special snowflakes? That's it? That's your argument against 'special treatment'? Wow. Well congrats on knowing the rules. I'm in awe.

Seriously, at least the OP makes a pretty compelling argument for sanity. After reading your posts, I can't tell if you're trolling or just defensive.
Low sec, where shooting people you are either not at war with, or don't have a security rating below -5, will get you a sec hit. The OP is asking for the normal rules of engagement to not count, simply because they don't like the sec hit. Their excuse for change, is it has an FW label on it.

This is the typical argument about Eve and it's sandbox nature. People like that they can do what they want, but cry when others can do things they don't want. Guess what, welcome to Eve. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#58 - 2013-02-22 19:15:53 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
Agree with OP and I live in FW space but am nuetral.

Any fool can see how silly it is that I can enter a plex and shoot first or wait in a plex expecting the same.

And special treatment Mag's? LOL! If you don't think groups/sections of space are all treated differently, then you still don't get EVE at all.
I get Eve. It seems many special snowflake FW players, have problems in that area.

null and wspace is offtopic since crimewatch is turned off. If it would be turned off in plexes too this thread would not exist
That's the point. If you don't want to deal with crimewatch penalties, move to either null or WH space. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#59 - 2013-02-22 19:19:13 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Onomerous wrote:

It is low sec. You attack, you get sec hit. How hard is that to understand? Being FW means the rules change?

neutrals attack by entering a FW plex. They do not get a sec status hit. Thats what the thread is about.


When neutrals attack you while in a FW plex, they don't get a sec hit? Is that what you are saying? It appears to be that way. If so then I agree it is fubared. How are they attacking you as a legit target then? (I haven't been in FW for years).

If you are mad because neutrals can come into FW plex, size you up and shoot you... well then you are on your own. As long as either side takes a sec for attacking there is no problem with the situation.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#60 - 2013-02-22 19:26:19 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ak'athra J'ador wrote:
It's Low-sec dude. Low-sec is a grey area that sure isn't perfect. FW has some grey areas that sure aren't perfect.

I don't think you're trying to make the argument that these rules are immutable, or perfect and shouldn't change.. the point in this post seems to be that you live in low-sec an know the rules? And that FW players are special snowflakes? That's it? That's your argument against 'special treatment'? Wow. Well congrats on knowing the rules. I'm in awe.

Seriously, at least the OP makes a pretty compelling argument for sanity. After reading your posts, I can't tell if you're trolling or just defensive.

Oh and btw - please with the snowflake comment. Maybe name calling works at your playground in real life, and maybe that'll scare off would be posters that get bullied in playgrounds like yours, but you'll still need to make logical argument with real words if you want make a point here.

Special snowflakes? Scares me what you kids arent' learning in school. Trying making point, not an insult.
Low sec, where shooting people you are either not at war with, or don't have a security rating below -5, will get you a sec hit. The OP is asking for the normal rules of engagement to not count, simply because they don't like the sec hit. The excuse is it has an FW label on it.

This is the typical argument about Eve and it's sandbox nature. People like that they can do what they want, but cry when others can do things they don't want. Guess what, welcome to Eve.


mags. you still haven't made a point. you keep explaining what is while dodging what can be. i never understood people that simply recount things. we get it. there's a sec status hit when you shoot a nuet. no one has ever disputed that, there's really no reason to keep bringing it up. it's the reason for the post.

also, no one is crying. when you say things like that it makes me think you're just here because you like making sure that you get your way regardless of how you do it or what makes sense. it's childish, and children cry. are you crying because someone is pointing out something that doesn't make sense, or are you trying to make a point that makes sense? if the latter, please do it.

i'd still like the status hit removed so it makes mores sense... at this point I can see you really don't have a rational counter-pioint, do you? i mean, really, why would making more sense be an issue? you can't argue it.