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Inside the mind of a high sec industrialist.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#61 - 2013-02-21 20:09:25 UTC
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

The funny thing is, there's really nothing to this. There shouldn't be any argument. Neither carebearing nor pvp have any intrinsic value over the other. The only value each activity has is given to it by the players.



PvPers don't need bears but bears do need PvPers.
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#62 - 2013-02-21 20:21:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PvPers don't need bears but bears do need PvPers.


Why?

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
CJ Dashto
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-02-21 20:24:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PvPers don't need bears but bears do need PvPers.


I'm pretty sure the ships and gear you use aren't just conjured out of thin air. Roll
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2013-02-21 20:26:38 UTC
Ditra Vorthran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PvPers don't need bears but bears do need PvPers.
Why?
Because without the PvPers, the bears would have no content — without the bears, the PvPers would have just as much content as they have now.

CJ Dashto wrote:
I'm pretty sure the ships and gear you use aren't just conjured out of thin air.
Of course not. The bears are just not necessary for the process.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-02-21 20:30:27 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
PvPers are upset because CCP has made multiple changes to Eve to accomodate pvp adverse players.


And will continue to do so to prevent this:

Bing Bangboom wrote:
we should be able to wardec your corporation into oblivion, gank your ships into dust and wage not only ship to ship but the economic warfare you seem to find acceptable on you until we crush you. Don't you agree?



Be as upset as you want, but CCP is not going to allow players like you, to drive players like me out of EVE.


You say I have nothing to offer EVE except the money from my subscription. Ummmm,,,,, And what do you think EVE is? It is a commercial enterprise that exists to make money for the company that operates it. SO, what you are saying is that the only thing I have to offer EVE is the ONLY thing that EVE exists for!
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-02-21 20:31:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

The funny thing is, there's really nothing to this. There shouldn't be any argument. Neither carebearing nor pvp have any intrinsic value over the other. The only value each activity has is given to it by the players.



PvPers don't need bears but bears do need PvPers.



Without the bears, and their subscription monies, CCP would be bankrupt.

You do, in fact, need the carebears, if you want CCP to continue to exist and for EVE to continue to operate.
Black Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-02-21 20:34:25 UTC
One word.....

Sandbox!
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#68 - 2013-02-21 20:35:11 UTC
A well presented and well written OP.

Whether I agree or not (and I do agree with plenty of it), it was a good read.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#69 - 2013-02-21 20:36:47 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Without the bears, and their subscription monies, CCP would be bankrupt.
Not really, no.
By the last count, less than 10% actively disliked PvP. That's about as many as they lost from Incursion, and guess what? They survived that (by focusing more on the PvP parts of the game, no less).
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#70 - 2013-02-21 20:37:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Of course not. The bears are just not necessary for the process.


How?

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-02-21 20:38:13 UTC
Careful everyone! Push him to far and Tarawa will quit, taking his 200k (at last count) alts/imaginary friends with him.
CCP will have no choice but to turn off the cluster and beg him to come backRoll
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#72 - 2013-02-21 20:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: EI Digin
Ditra Vorthran wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Of course not. The bears are just not necessary for the process.


How?


Because PVPers don't necessarily live in a bubble (like carebears do) and only blow up spaceships.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-02-21 20:42:09 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:

Your threads get locked because you're a terrible troll.


In my forum warrioring, what trolling have I done? My posts are meant either to prompt discussion or to provide my honest opinion. There's nothing said here simply to cause a reaction.


It is a beautiful thing watching someone who has made a living ganking,scamming, stealing and awoxing and bragging about the "tears" they caused come to the forums and a blog and cry like a school girl.

The ying and yang.

Karma


Cry moar little fella.

Big smile

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2013-02-21 20:44:19 UTC
Ditra Vorthran wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Of course not. The bears are just not necessary for the process.
How?
Because everyone can (and do) do their job (whereas the bears can't really replace the crucially important roles that keep the game running). Bears are far from the only producers in the game… in fact, they're quite likely a rather small portion of the producing population.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-02-21 20:56:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Without the bears, and their subscription monies, CCP would be bankrupt.
Not really, no.
By the last count, less than 10% actively disliked PvP. That's about as many as they lost from Incursion, and guess what? They survived that (by focusing more on the PvP parts of the game, no less).



I'm not sure where you get this 10% figure.

Going from memory here, but I recall seeing a CCP presentation from like 3 years ago where they say that in any given month, something like 30% of accounts lose at least one ship to PVP, but only like 12% of accounts have a toon that is on a kill mail.

Sure, a lot of accounts are PVPer alts that they use for scouting, spying, remote rep, etc.

However, I'm not sure that each PVPer has like 7 accounts.


I suppose you could be talking actual players, and each carebear like me, if only 10% of the player base, has 8x as many accounts as the average PVP friendly player. I'm not sure that strengthens your case though.
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#76 - 2013-02-21 20:57:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Because everyone can (and do) do their job (whereas the bears can't really replace the crucially important roles that keep the game running). Bears are far from the only producers in the game… in fact, they're quite likely a rather small portion of the producing population.


I aggree with this assertation to a point. You can do more than one thing in this game than *just* PvP.

As an example, in the alliance I'm with, many of the PvPers have carebear alts that they use to make money to fund their habit. They carebear by necessity and PvP for a lifestyle. Or, like myself or people like Mabrick, we PvP by necessity and carebear for a lifestyle.

However, I disagree that Bears are a 'rather small portion of the producing population.' Given that the most commonly produced items are made in high sec, and the vast majority of of materials are gathered in high sec, it's more believable that that carebears are the majority of producers.

PvP may not dry up and blow away if someone snapped their fingers and ejected bears from the game, but you would see far less PvP than there is right now when the resources they gather disappear.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Whitehound
#77 - 2013-02-21 20:57:43 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Without the bears, and their subscription monies, CCP would be bankrupt.

Thousands of bots said the same, until they were woken up from their dreams...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-02-21 20:59:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
in fact, they're quite likely a rather small portion of the producing population.


In which case, any argument that we should be f'd with because how we mess up markets by producing without risk, is moot.



It is kind-a a Catch-22. If there are a lot of us, then CCP must protect us and our play style because their revenue is dependent on us. If we are a tiny fraction of the player base, then we can't possibly be having a major effect on the EVE ecosystem.


Based on things I've heard from CCP, along with the large number of changes to protect players like me, I believe the former is more likely than the latter.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-02-21 21:06:02 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Without the bears, and their subscription monies, CCP would be bankrupt.

Thousands of bots said the same, until they were woken up from their dreams...


The difference being that the bots were producing more than a player likely can. As a result, they were driving down market prices and driving out multiple other accounts.

When bots are removed and mineral prices are increased, carebear industrialists like me create enough new account to fill the void, not only replacing the bots, but more than replace them in subscribed account count goes.

There are no other accounts that would be created to replace the carebears that replaced the bots, should we be driven from the game.

We are not displacing people with other play styles.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2013-02-21 21:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this 10% figure.
CCP's survey, as presented during fanfest.

Quote:
I suppose you could be talking actual players, and each carebear like me, if only 10% of the player base, has 8x as many accounts as the average PVP friendly player. I'm not sure that strengthens your case though.
That's an interesting hypothetical that doesn't really make any difference either way.

Quote:
In which case, any argument that we should be f'd with because how we mess up markets by producing without risk, is moot.
Not really, no. Just because a small minority is messing up the market doesn't mean that it would be a whole lot better if no-one did it. Also, if you can do it without risk, then so can everyone else and that needs to be fixed regardless. It's that bubble problem again: bears seem to think that they live in one, when in fact what they do has much larger implication for the game as a whole.

So there being a few of you doesn't mean that the problem is small or that it doesn't need solving. It just means that solving it won't make people leave in quite the droves you're hoping for.

Ditra Vorthran wrote:
However, I disagree that Bears are a 'rather small portion of the producing population.' Given that the most commonly produced items are made in high sec, and the vast majority of of materials are gathered in high sec, it's more believable that that carebears are the majority of producers.
No, that doesn't really follow. It just means that highsec offers too much protection so it becomes stupid to do those activities anywhere else. Again, just because there might be few bears doesn't mean that the problem is small — what they can do, everyone can do, and it's the fact that everyone is doing it in highsec that indicates that things are out of whack.