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RIP Hurricane
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Daniel Whateley
#41 - 2013-02-21 12:22:08 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Daniel Whateley wrote:
Hurricane was never overpowered, its range with autocannons was within 30km any further and you wouldn't do any damage, and as for an arty boat it was only 300-400 dps at most, and we all know how terrible arties track, this shouldn't of happened to the cane, almost all of the other battlecruisers were more powerful than the cane, shorter range of coarse but in a 1v1 against a gallente ship, the gallente ship would win in brawling, the changes to it have unbalanced it...


Gallente Boats = Brawlers, for max DPS which is why alot of people prefer them.




None of my gallente ships are brawlers though P they're fit for kiting coz i'm just that good
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-02-21 12:22:58 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Quote:
Lasers = Longest Range / Lowest DPS


I don't think the Harbinger got your memo squirt.

Or the Drake, cause if capless weapon systems is the Canes 'core' - its shared by Drake, Cyclone, Prophecy, Myrmidon.


Conflagration on Heavy Pulse lasers II 7,5km+5KM // 591 DPS
Hail M on 220mm 1,4KM+8,3KM // 583 DPS

But let's compare guns should we? so Largest = Largest?
Hail M on 425mm 1,5KM+9KM // 613 DPS

Guns only ofc.

Also, for the Drake? You can neut it's tank away, i highly doubt you're fitting a cap booster on your Drake.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-02-21 12:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
culo duro wrote:
Seolfor wrote:
Quote:
Lasers = Longest Range / Lowest DPS


I don't think the Harbinger got your memo squirt.

Or the Drake, cause if capless weapon systems is the Canes 'core' - its shared by Drake, Cyclone, Prophecy, Myrmidon.


Conflagration on Heavy Pulse lasers II 7,5km+5KM // 591 DPS
Hail M on 220mm 1,4KM+8,3KM // 583 DPS

But let's compare guns should we? so Largest = Largest?
Hail M on 425mm 1,5KM+9KM // 613 DPS

Guns only ofc.

Also, for the Drake? You can neut it's tank away, i highly doubt you're fitting a cap booster on your Drake.



Convenient.

With Hail, you've surrendered your 'damage selection'. Ignore the larger drone bay on Amarr BCs, you've artificially shown the Cane to be higher.

But worse, your point was longest range = lowest dps.

So, now please do your awesome math and show how HPL Scorch does v/s 425 Barrage at ~22km.

or HAM Faction vs 425 Barrage

any/all at ~22km.

Please.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#44 - 2013-02-21 12:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
culo duro wrote:
Daniel Whateley wrote:
Hurricane was never overpowered, its range with autocannons was within 30km any further and you wouldn't do any damage, and as for an arty boat it was only 300-400 dps at most, and we all know how terrible arties track, this shouldn't of happened to the cane, almost all of the other battlecruisers were more powerful than the cane, shorter range of coarse but in a 1v1 against a gallente ship, the gallente ship would win in brawling, the changes to it have unbalanced it...


Gallente Boats = Brawlers, for max DPS which is why alot of people prefer them.




Eh, as far as Hurricane vs Brutix goes, it seems fair.
Hurricane Kites Brutix, Cane wins.
Brutix lands on zero, scrams cane - Brutix wins.

Cane vs Harbinger opposite.
Cane can brawls Harbinger, but at risk if it gets kited.

My problem isn't so much the Hurricane getting pwned - its the Drake STILL sitting at the top of the heap, despite having been there since the Nano-nerf.

A Brutix can tear down a Drake at point blank, and a Drake can kite a Brutix.

But comparing apples to apples - the Cane really has no 'path to victory' against a Drake.
At all. Unless you get the ideal weapon-range mismatch at the ideal range: (ACs vs HML at 0 km)

Try brawling. Switch damage types all you like. Use hail, go nuts. Your 'extra' damage is completely swallowed up by Passive recharge - and that is ASIDE from a 30-50% larger buffer - and your own mobility advantage is stunted badly, because you fit a plate, right?

Try kiting. Your damage drops off to the point of irrelevence, while short-range HAMs savage you out to 30 km. Beyond that? Your own damage isn't even enough to handle his passive recharge rate, and you don't have a point on him either.

You NEEDED the 2x neuts to shut off the Invulns to even have a chance against a Drake. And even then - it was a very near thing.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#45 - 2013-02-21 12:34:32 UTC
if CCP will be boosting ships instead nerf them, we get 8H/8M/8L on everything soon, and also it remove any difference between ships and make newbies sad.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-02-21 12:35:37 UTC
Quote:

You NEEDED the 2x neuts to shut off the Invulns to even have a chance against a Drake. And even then - it was a very near thing.


This.

A thousand times this.

Give back the 2nd utility high, even if not the PG - so people will need to dual180s and Anci Rig to fit the 2 med neuts, but THAT was the Cane's core - which maximized its benefit of capless guns, damage selection.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-02-21 13:06:30 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Daniel Whateley wrote:
Hurricane was never overpowered, its range with autocannons was within 30km any further and you wouldn't do any damage, and as for an arty boat it was only 300-400 dps at most, and we all know how terrible arties track, this shouldn't of happened to the cane, almost all of the other battlecruisers were more powerful than the cane, shorter range of coarse but in a 1v1 against a gallente ship, the gallente ship would win in brawling, the changes to it have unbalanced it...


Gallente Boats = Brawlers, for max DPS which is why alot of people prefer them.




Eh, as far as Hurricane vs Brutix goes, it seems fair.
Hurricane Kites Brutix, Cane wins.
Brutix lands on zero, scrams cane - Brutix wins.

Cane vs Harbinger opposite.
Cane can brawls Harbinger, but at risk if it gets kited.

My problem isn't so much the Hurricane getting pwned - its the Drake STILL sitting at the top of the heap, despite having been there since the Nano-nerf.

A Brutix can tear down a Drake at point blank, and a Drake can kite a Brutix.

But comparing apples to apples - the Cane really has no 'path to victory' against a Drake.
At all. Unless you get the ideal weapon-range mismatch at the ideal range: (ACs vs HML at 0 km)

Try brawling. Switch damage types all you like. Use hail, go nuts. Your 'extra' damage is completely swallowed up by Passive recharge - and that is ASIDE from a 30-50% larger buffer - and your own mobility advantage is stunted badly, because you fit a plate, right?

Try kiting. Your damage drops off to the point of irrelevence, while short-range HAMs savage you out to 30 km. Beyond that? Your own damage isn't even enough to handle his passive recharge rate, and you don't have a point on him either.

You NEEDED the 2x neuts to shut off the Invulns to even have a chance against a Drake. And even then - it was a very near thing.


So why isn't the brutix or the Harbinger allowed to get 2x Neuts aswell? You need to choose your fights right, or get friends.
The Cane was extremely superior compared to the Brutix, The Harbinger, and the Drake. 2 med neuts on a BC is op.

Rock beats scissors and paper beats rock.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#48 - 2013-02-21 13:12:45 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Quote:

You NEEDED the 2x neuts to shut off the Invulns to even have a chance against a Drake. And even then - it was a very near thing.


This.

A thousand times this.

Give back the 2nd utility high, even if not the PG - so people will need to dual180s and Anci Rig to fit the 2 med neuts, but THAT was the Cane's core - which maximized its benefit of capless guns, damage selection.


Just curious, which slot would you move to high then? Medium or low? Because BCs have 17 slots (bar drone boats with 16 slots)
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#49 - 2013-02-21 13:12:47 UTC
Don't forget. There is a hard counter to every ship. If there are no hard counters to the cane, the cane will be OP, which it was.

So what, the Cane cant take the Drake one on one? Well, tough luck, you should not have engaged the Drake in the first place.

You cant pick scissors every time, and expect to win vs rock from time to time.

True, you did need the two neuts to shut off the Drakes tank. Now you cannot do that any more, which is exactly the point. It's balanced. No, it's not balanced in the sense that every ship has a fair chance vs another ship, and that is not the point either, else we would all fly the same ship, and CCP could just have one race with one ship in each class.

So many times it comes down to fittings as well (duh...)

Fit a cane for speed and with a TD and have the greatest time ever vs the Harbinger or Brutix. The fight is won or lost before you undock, some say. This is very true. Want to kill a Drake, bring a Myrmidon or Brutix, not a Cane. Brutix with EC-600 is devastating in 1v1

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Daniel Whateley
#50 - 2013-02-21 13:48:57 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Daniel Whateley wrote:
Hurricane was never overpowered, its range with autocannons was within 30km any further and you wouldn't do any damage, and as for an arty boat it was only 300-400 dps at most, and we all know how terrible arties track, this shouldn't of happened to the cane, almost all of the other battlecruisers were more powerful than the cane, shorter range of coarse but in a 1v1 against a gallente ship, the gallente ship would win in brawling, the changes to it have unbalanced it...


Gallente Boats = Brawlers, for max DPS which is why alot of people prefer them.




Eh, as far as Hurricane vs Brutix goes, it seems fair.
Hurricane Kites Brutix, Cane wins.
Brutix lands on zero, scrams cane - Brutix wins.

Cane vs Harbinger opposite.
Cane can brawls Harbinger, but at risk if it gets kited.

My problem isn't so much the Hurricane getting pwned - its the Drake STILL sitting at the top of the heap, despite having been there since the Nano-nerf.

A Brutix can tear down a Drake at point blank, and a Drake can kite a Brutix.

But comparing apples to apples - the Cane really has no 'path to victory' against a Drake.
At all. Unless you get the ideal weapon-range mismatch at the ideal range: (ACs vs HML at 0 km)

Try brawling. Switch damage types all you like. Use hail, go nuts. Your 'extra' damage is completely swallowed up by Passive recharge - and that is ASIDE from a 30-50% larger buffer - and your own mobility advantage is stunted badly, because you fit a plate, right?

Try kiting. Your damage drops off to the point of irrelevence, while short-range HAMs savage you out to 30 km. Beyond that? Your own damage isn't even enough to handle his passive recharge rate, and you don't have a point on him either.

You NEEDED the 2x neuts to shut off the Invulns to even have a chance against a Drake. And even then - it was a very near thing.


So why isn't the brutix or the Harbinger allowed to get 2x Neuts aswell? You need to choose your fights right, or get friends.
The Cane was extremely superior compared to the Brutix, The Harbinger, and the Drake. 2 med neuts on a BC is op.

Rock beats scissors and paper beats rock.



you can put 2x neuts on any battlecruiser Cool upgrade its guns to neutrons ? they fixed the problem with ALL other bc's in the patch, you can now effectively put 2 neuts on any of them, but they're continueing to put the cane in the hole... so a 5 neut myrm is overpowered too? gotcha.
Daniel Whateley
#51 - 2013-02-21 14:01:51 UTC
all bc's were easy to understand before the patch, everything was evenly matched, now its more complicated than ever, a cane with arties... was not OP nor was it when it had autocannons, i think the cane was undernourished to begin with, i guess ccp just really didn't like the hurricane as it was or was it the player base's concern Ugh my ferox before any of this could take on a cane no problem and if it was arty fit id just warp off... *peace sign* its 2 neuts weren't a concern to begin with 12km range on them could be easily evaded, and almost every armor ship has cap boosters on it if your brawling thats standard pvp, there was never an issue with the cane, IN FACT i always thought of the cane as a meridian of all ships and that all ships revolved around the cane, now its like uhhm what am i supposed to expect in comparison now!?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#52 - 2013-02-21 14:51:49 UTC
Daniel Whateley wrote:
all bc's were easy to understand before the patch, everything was evenly matched, now its more complicated than ever, a cane with arties... was not OP nor was it when it had autocannons, i think the cane was undernourished to begin with, i guess ccp just really didn't like the hurricane as it was or was it the player base's concern Ugh my ferox before any of this could take on a cane no problem and if it was arty fit id just warp off... *peace sign* its 2 neuts weren't a concern to begin with 12km range on them could be easily evaded, and almost every armor ship has cap boosters on it if your brawling thats standard pvp, there was never an issue with the cane, IN FACT i always thought of the cane as a meridian of all ships and that all ships revolved around the cane, now its like uhhm what am i supposed to expect in comparison now!?

Tell me more about all the pre patch Prophecies you were owning New Eden with

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#53 - 2013-02-21 15:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
The problem with CCPs nerfhammer is that they need to be more gentle with it. Was the hurricane a bit out of line with the other battlecruisers and need balancing a bit better? Yeah. Is that what happened here? Not really. There's no reason to use the bloody thing now. The nerfhammer swings from one extreme to the other
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#54 - 2013-02-21 15:18:32 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The problem with CCPs nerfhammer is that they need to be more gentle with it. Was the hurricane a bit out of line with the other battlecruisers and need balancing a bit better? Yeah. Is that what happened here? Not really. There's no reason to use the bloody thing now. The nerfhammer swings from one extreme to the other

The problem is that you will never be happy with the nerfhammer, whichever way they swing it.

The Hurricane was not a bit out of line, it was the be all end all ship to fly in pvp. Now it is in a place where it will perform very well vs some battlecruisers, and horribly vs others. Guess which other battlecruiser this applies to. Every damn one.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Othran
Route One
#55 - 2013-02-21 15:27:39 UTC
The Hurricane isn't dead but it is on life-support. Double nerf was a tad too much IMHO.

I don't care much one way or the other as I can fly any BC.

Its really the end of the dominance of T1 Minmatar ships in PvP - lets be fair its been a good run since Dominion and the TE2 boost that turned ACs into god mode :P

Before Retribution you'd typically go :

Rifter->Thrasher->Rupture->Hurricane

Now? Who knows. Not a bad thing IMHO but I'm aware I have the luxury of being able to fly pretty much anything sub-cap, others don't.

With the exception of trajectory analysis 5 your gunnery skills will be just as worthwhile on non-projectile ships.

tl;dr the Hurricane isn't particularly good at anything now; unlikely to change soon so best cross-train some weapons & BCs
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#56 - 2013-02-21 15:34:31 UTC
What made the cane OP was its ability to fit 2 neutra *on top* of *everything else*...

That allowed it to pick every fight and have a very good chance to win (neuted ship often equal dead ship), and to be practically immune to smaller ships. That was way too much.
whiskey08
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-02-21 15:53:38 UTC
I understand if CCP wants to go the way of socialism. Everyone, every ship is equal. Requires no thought process or strategy, just join and play.

However, if they are going to nerf the ships i sought out and trained tirelessly for two years than i feel i should have my skills points refunded so i can re invest as i see fit.

Its absoulutely wrong for CCP to undo what ive spent years doing. They should also refund isk spent on nerfed ships.

as a small gang pvper, it was always about the ship, skills points, and pilot skill, now tht every thing is going to be balanced, its going to come down to who has the bigger fleet. Thats when eve will become WOW
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#58 - 2013-02-21 16:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
whiskey08 wrote:
I understand if CCP wants to go the way of socialism. Everyone, every ship is equal. Requires no thought process or strategy, just join and play.

However, if they are going to nerf the ships i sought out and trained tirelessly for two years than i feel i should have my skills points refunded so i can re invest as i see fit.

Its absoulutely wrong for CCP to undo what ive spent years doing. They should also refund isk spent on nerfed ships.

as a small gang pvper, it was always about the ship, skills points, and pilot skill, now tht every thing is going to be balanced, its going to come down to who has the bigger fleet. Thats when eve will become WOW

That is the most amazing post I ever seen about balance ! Francly, you are a genius ! You just tryed to make an argument about balancing EVE resulting in its transformation into WoW !

:D
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#59 - 2013-02-21 16:17:19 UTC
Rezig Huruta wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I can fly everything in the BC category and I sold my only Hurricane yesterday. I really don't care as I'm pushing 109m SP and am proficient in just about every weapon system. But they did nerf the cane's PG too much. There is no reason to fly it with so many better choices available. My Harb can fit the largest tier guns and a 1600mm plate. It sends more DPS farther with more EHP AND it now has a larger drone bay.


The problem with "so many better choices available" is that many players are skilled in certain areas. Flying a medium blaster ship might not be a viable alternative.


It takes less than a month to skill up T2 medium guns. The problem you describe is, at worst, short term.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#60 - 2013-02-21 16:18:32 UTC
whiskey08 wrote:
I understand if CCP wants to go the way of socialism. Everyone, every ship is equal. Requires no thought process or strategy, just join and play.

However, if they are going to nerf the ships i sought out and trained tirelessly for two years than i feel i should have my skills points refunded so i can re invest as i see fit.

Its absoulutely wrong for CCP to undo what ive spent years doing. They should also refund isk spent on nerfed ships.

as a small gang pvper, it was always about the ship, skills points, and pilot skill, now tht every thing is going to be balanced, its going to come down to who has the bigger fleet. Thats when eve will become WOW



God forbid you should have to ~boostraps~ yourself to be able to fly a different battlecruiser.

PS have you checked out the Cyclone?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016