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Advenus Classem Announcement to the State
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#41 - 2013-02-20 14:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
It is my personal belief that the alliance between the State and the Empire should remain purely economic and military in nature. I see no profit, in either societal or financial terms, from any cultural exchange of this sort.

I suppose I wish everyone involved the best of luck, regardless, though.
Anslo
Scope Works
#42 - 2013-02-20 14:06:09 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
It is my personal belief that the alliance between the State and the Empire should remain purely economic and military in nature. I see no profit, in either societal or financial terms, from any cultural exchange of this sort.

I suppose I wish everyone involved the best of luck, regardless, though.


It's not always about the profit Gwen. Sometimes the intrinsic value of having a friend from a totally different culture, sitting down, and having a beer over a good conversation is worth more than a billion isk contractual agreement.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#43 - 2013-02-20 14:07:48 UTC
I trust that as long as Faith is not restricted by the Caldari from participating in their market place of ideas it will in time be proven on merit. As per Caldari custom. As long as the State does not seek to be the Enemy it is not the enemy. As long as the Caldari State honors it's agreements and acts as our ally, it is our ally. To be aided when State requests that aid and to have it's parts treated fairly when they seek to do business with or within the Empire.

As long as current status quo stands there is no need or reason to interfere or seek to teach, guide or dictate how the Caldari might best organize their society or handle their business. I am certain that such efforts would be as welcome as certain Caldari pilots efforts to teach, guide or dictate how the Faithful should conduct their business and organize our society, aside from business and all exchange with the Caldari.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#44 - 2013-02-20 14:07:55 UTC
Anslo wrote:
It's not always about the profit Gwen. Sometimes the intrinsic value of having a friend from a totally different culture, sitting down, and having a beer over a good conversation is worth more than a billion isk contractual agreement.


...Profit as in, "Gain", sir. My apologies if I was unclear.
Anslo
Scope Works
#45 - 2013-02-20 14:10:07 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Anslo wrote:
It's not always about the profit Gwen. Sometimes the intrinsic value of having a friend from a totally different culture, sitting down, and having a beer over a good conversation is worth more than a billion isk contractual agreement.


...Profit as in, "Gain", sir. My apologies if I was unclear.


Oh okok. Still, the gain is in the comradeship! I'm sure if you took part in this initiative, you'd change your mind. I mean in the end it's up to you, but I just can't agree with the notion that nothing could be gained from this. And this is coming from a Gallentean.

Also don't call me sir, just Anslo.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2013-02-20 14:58:35 UTC
To be honest, there is a great deal of strategic utility to be gained from Empire and State pilots learning to fly together. At present I hardly ever see golden ships in Black Rise and I have never felt a pull to travel out to aid the Amarr in their fight. If we are truly allies, more of that sort of thing should be occuring, no?

In addition there is a big difference between Cultural Interchange and Cultural Understanding. Promoting cultural understanding, as I am in this case, will provide data to either prove or disprove Hakatain-haan's point.

Personally speaking, despite enjoying Commander Goldcore's hospitality thoroughly on my visit to her establishment, I remain on good terms with my ancestors.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2013-02-20 17:02:10 UTC
You Caldari should listen to Stitcher. The slavers are basically saying, "We like you, so, we'll kill you last." In the end you're just as dead.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#48 - 2013-02-20 18:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
The Amarr Empire in the eyes of Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain :

Practicing Religion = Being Evil

Self-Defense = Being Evil

Cultural Outreach = Being Evil

Say a Nice Thing = Being Sneakily Evil

Breathing = Being Evil

Announce Peaceful Intent = Planning to be Evil at a Later Unappointed Date

Be in a State of Gradual Societal Reformation that Involves Changing Military, Political, Religious, Economic and Social Norms to Cope With a Changing Cluster So that its People May Eventually Live in Peace = Something Something Evil

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-02-20 19:22:18 UTC
If you believe your cultural ideals to be the correct way, then you have nothing to fear from this initiative.

If you believe your own culture to be weak, then there is very much good reason to be afraid.

I have made no secret that I would love to see those who take interest in the Amarr way convert completely. Having another brother or sister is something that should always be celebrated. However that is not the goal of this program. The Empire and State combined have many enemies, most are the same. It seems unwise to fight without a rear guard to watch your back. If, after all is said and done there is only military partnership that is created, then I would consider my efforts successful.

On another matter, the AVCL common area, known as the AVCL Connection, is open to all patrons to visit as they see fit. We serve food and drink free to any currently serving Caldari or Amarr militia members and should have this evenings Mind Clash match live. Expect to wear semi-formal clothing as this establishment is considered up-scale and as such only has the finest amenities. The doors to the AVCL connection, however, are barred from anyone identifying themselves as loyal to any faction hostile to either the Empire or State. Also, no weapons are allowed... though being on the capsuleer deck, those aren't allowed anyway.

Edit to inital post reflecting the AVCL connection to be expected shortly.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2013-02-20 20:41:47 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
It's none of my business what individual persons choose to believe. It is my business, as it is the business of all Caldari, to worry about foreign interference in Caldari affairs.

[...]

I'll be damned if I'll live to see the meritocratic ideals of the State supplanted by mindlessly kowtowing to the "chosen" of Dam-Torsad.




So, in short, you do not trust your fellow Caldari enough to see for themselves when they are manipulated ? You do not trust them to be intelligent enough - to the opposite of you - to not have noticed this if this really is the case ?

This is confusing.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2013-02-20 20:45:33 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
To be honest, there is a great deal of strategic utility to be gained from Empire and State pilots learning to fly together. At present I hardly ever see golden ships in Black Rise and I have never felt a pull to travel out to aid the Amarr in their fight. If we are truly allies, more of that sort of thing should be occuring, no?


I used to do that quite often in the early days of the proxy war, but I have not seen a lot doing the same, where the FDU and the TLF used to do that from times to times when they looked for an edge in a specific battle.
Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-02-20 21:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kithrus
Stitcher wrote:
"I like you. When I rule the universe and all the worlds of creation bow to my throne, you will be spared until the very last"?

You realize that being saved for last still constitutes being a target, yes? I dislike being a target.


Fly a Black Bird or Scorpion or something jammy loaded with White Noise generators then.

All joking aside your acting like a spoiled child. You can't get what want to you whine and scream over every outcome but some impossible lofty goal which you'll never have.

Guess what? You have friends, they want to help. Stop complaining when you get it or when you need it they won't show up.

Regardless of what you believe conquering the Caldari is not on our agenda. No not even that way.

The Kingdom has never tried to enslave you, the Amarr respect you. Your a nation of order, devotion and unwavering loyalty. I know I can be quoted saying the best men I ever flew beside were Caldari for those very reasons. The leader of my corp is Caldari and hes the most faithful man I've ever had the pleasure to work for.

Caution is on thing but your little display here is boarding on delusional paranoia mixed with vast amounts of ingratitude.

Anabella Rella wrote:
You Caldari should listen to Stitcher. The slavers are basically saying, "We like you, so, we'll kill you last." In the end you're just as dead.



Yes yes and if Amarr were the enslaving monsters with Vitoc laced candy you make us out to be then what you just finished saying there makes no sense because (shock and awe) you can't enslave dead people!

Reality check: Not everyone in the Empire / kingdom is a Slaver (the guy who goes out and captures people to make them slaves) or a Holder (the guy who can own slaves). Some of us have you know... Jobs like the rest of the people in the cluster. Like writers, artists, scientist, doctors, engineers, ceo ect.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-02-20 22:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Knoot Enderas
Hakatain-haan,

While I appreciate your concerns for my beliefs, I'm secure enough in my Caldari-ness to spend some time with our brothers and sisters in the Empire. In the Jita system I might be thougt of as an Ishukone citizen, a Capsuleer, a Provist-sympathiser. a liberal, a practical or a patriot. Out here in Imperial space, I am Caldari. I am not part of some fractious political coalition; I am Caldari.

The fact that I represent the State and the Caldari race among a different people only makes me want to be the best Caldari I can be. It is my responsibility to give off a good impression by working hard, showing patriotic commitment to my corporation and conducting myself with strength, persistence, and dignity.

As others have already pointed out, there are distinct tactical and strategic advantages to cultural exchange. The "corruption" scenario could only happen if millions of people decided to enlist in this programme. I do not see this happening any time soon.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#54 - 2013-02-20 23:23:00 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
You Caldari should listen to Stitcher. The slavers are basically saying, "We like you, so, we'll kill you last." In the end you're just as dead.


Mrs Rella,

Respectfully, this is a bit short sighted given CONCORD and the Amarr Empire have both officially forbid and denounced (respectively) the taking of new slaves outside the Empire and the Amarr Empress freed close to a billion of the oldest generation of slaves within the last few years. The last overtly hostile action the Empire took towards another foreign power was when they invaded the Jovian Empire in 2316 AD, while its still in living memory when the Minmatar Elders launched an invasion of Empire, Ammatar and even CONCORD sovereignty and killed thousands of people while in the case of CONCORD, murdered innocent representatives from every race and nation in New Eden in violation of Cluster wide law.

You shouldn't let hate and prejudice blind you from thinking objectively. The Caldari have always successfully fended off anything they declared a violation of their culture and if this agreement begins to turn sour they will do it again. I myself welcome such an initiative and hope to see stronger ties created between the Amarr Empire, its constituents and the Caldari State.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-02-21 00:47:42 UTC
To for-fill the objectives of this program AVCL is looking for a leader in the Caldari State Protectorate in order to render assistance setting up a AVCL base of operations within the Caldari theater of operations. The goal of this base is to conduct some limited combined arms operations utilizing joint forces on combat operations in the near future. Likewise AVCL is willing to offer logistical services in setting up a similar base for active Caldari Militia members to participate in AVCL combat operations.

If interested and able, please contact me in either the AVCL connection, or via mail contact.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2013-02-21 05:35:53 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

Mrs Rella,

Respectfully, this is a bit short sighted given CONCORD and the Amarr Empire have both officially forbid and denounced (respectively) the taking of new slaves outside the Empire and the Amarr Empress freed close to a billion of the oldest generation of slaves within the last few years. The last overtly hostile action the Empire took towards another foreign power was when they invaded the Jovian Empire in 2316 AD, while its still in living memory when the Minmatar Elders launched an invasion of Empire, Ammatar and even CONCORD sovereignty and killed thousands of people while in the case of CONCORD, murdered innocent representatives from every race and nation in New Eden in violation of Cluster wide law.

You shouldn't let hate and prejudice blind you from thinking objectively. The Caldari have always successfully fended off anything they declared a violation of their culture and if this agreement begins to turn sour they will do it again. I myself welcome such an initiative and hope to see stronger ties created between the Amarr Empire, its constituents and the Caldari State.


Mrs? I seem to have suddenly gained a spouse that I'm totally unaware of! Blink

As long as the Empire's stated goal is to forcefully convert all humanity to their religion and culture via the "reclaiming" (and Sarum announced a new "reclaiming" at the same time she gained power), then I think all peoples of the cluster have something to be concerned with whether an ally of the Empire or not.

Let's not play the moral equivalence game; the Elders did what they did in order to preserve the last of a people the Amarr tried to exterminate centuries ago. It was a necessary evil. I'd not compare that to what the Amarr have perpetrated upon the cluster since they emerged from the dark ages at the behest of their dusty religious books.

P.S. I'm quite aware that not all imperials hold slaves but, if you support the Empire and its goals you're just as complicit in my opinion.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2013-02-21 13:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Anabella Rella wrote:
As long as the Empire's stated goal is to forcefully convert all humanity to their religion and culture via the "reclaiming" (and Sarum announced a new "reclaiming" at the same time she gained power), then I think all peoples of the cluster have something to be concerned with whether an ally of the Empire or not.

But that's not the stated goal of the Empire, Ms Rella. The stated goal is to reunite all humanity in a fullfilling and harmonious relationship with the one divine source. That is the essence of the Reclaiming. Whether that necessitates and involves force or not is really up to the situation.

Take for example the Khanid people. They were at large (that is with the exception of a few insignificantly small clans of their tribes) reclaimed without being subjected to any force in the matter. It's just propaganda that the Empire isn't able to cooperate peacfully with others. The Empire was one of the driving forces behind the establishment of CONCORD and the following time of peace.

Even if the attack of the Elders on the Amarr was justified by past transgressions of the Amarr (and I highly doubt that, for the reason alone that two wrongs don't make a right) their attack on the CONCORD assembly wasn't in the last and their willful ignorance of international law and willingness to jeopardize interstellar peace lead inevitably to the following conflict. All that while there would have been other ways to pursue the goals the Elders seem to have had, unless of course the current state was among their goals. One really can't say that it was a 'necessary evil'.

Citing the 'necessary evil' is just a way to say that one doesn't want to bear the responsibility for ones actions.

That said:

I wish this initative success and may God bless your efforts!
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#58 - 2013-02-21 15:38:25 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
The stated goal is to reunite all humanity in a fullfilling and harmonious relationship with the one divine source. That is the essence of the Reclaiming. Whether that necessitates and involves force or not is really up to the situation.


Volunteer converts hardly require force, I do agree.
The question is: What are you going to do about those that politely decline?
I'm not going to draw parallels to another attempt at unification, but the question remains fair and is the reason for exercising prudence.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#59 - 2013-02-21 17:00:48 UTC
Indeed Pilot Mithra what's the Empire's stance on those who decline your "offer"? My people were given no choice in the matter; they could accept you or die, which is hardly a choice.

I also question just who the hell do you people think you are? You say that you were "chosen" by your god to rule over the rest of us. You say you have a divine mandate to "save" and "unite" humanity. I say that you don't. My spirituality and upbringing taught me that no man is inherently worth more than another and that no man has the right to force his will upon another. We seem to be at a stalemate. However, rather than accepting that state of impasse your Empire chooses to plow ahead using whatever means necessary (including force of arms, mass murder, slavery, cultural imperialism) to accomplish its goals.

I submit that humanity has never been unified and likely never will be because of the fact that we're humans and have free will. If your goal is this unification (by force, if your rule is not accepted) then, I see absolutely no difference between your people and Kuvakei's Nation. Remember that he also wants to unite all mankind under his vision of utopia.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#60 - 2013-02-21 17:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Anabella Rella wrote:

Mrs? I seem to have suddenly gained a spouse that I'm totally unaware of! Blink

As long as the Empire's stated goal is to forcefully convert all humanity to their religion and culture via the "reclaiming" (and Sarum announced a new "reclaiming" at the same time she gained power), then I think all peoples of the cluster have something to be concerned with whether an ally of the Empire or not.

Let's not play the moral equivalence game; the Elders did what they did in order to preserve the last of a people the Amarr tried to exterminate centuries ago. It was a necessary evil. I'd not compare that to what the Amarr have perpetrated upon the cluster since they emerged from the dark ages at the behest of their dusty religious books.

P.S. I'm quite aware that not all imperials hold slaves but, if you support the Empire and its goals you're just as complicit in my opinion.


My apologies for the typo MS. Rela, Smile

Sarum announced a 'New Reclaiming' in conjunction with the begging of the end to the slave system. That alone should tell you that there is more than one avenue open to the Empire and speaks volumes about the state of progression the Empire is on. This is important because 'Reclaiming' doesn't necessarily mean, in the theological sense, the forceful conquest of all people, but spiritual unification into a humanly Kingdom of God. One does not have to force the world to heel militarily in order to 'Reclaim' them and the Amarr don't do anyone any favors by attempting to force it on them. Faith is something you accept or don't, you can't force someone to believe.

Your preconceptions of the Empire however aren't entirely unjustified given the sordid history between the Empire and Republic, but rather than hold on to old grudges and hate why not look forward to the change happening right in front of your eyes? We can each be a voice of reason in our respected spheres rather than an echo of stagnation.

I agree entirely with you about not playing the moral equivalence game, which is why you should stop attempting remind the Cluster of the sins of Amarr's past when the Matari's remain fresh. There is no blanket term for ' a necessary evil'. You should remain aware that by claiming that you open up the Amarr to claim the exact same thing in terms of slavery. The end justifies the means would be applicable here and everyone would claim it but refuse to acknowledge the others.

It is however unfortunate that your people have not been given that option, which leads us to where we are today. Advenus Classem has however opted to take the chance to prove you wrong through their outreach program and show that Amarr isn't all about brutality and single mindedness. Have they given you any reason to doubt them, or are you simply acting on your hatred of past crimes?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb