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Advenus Classem Announcement to the State

Author
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2013-02-20 12:39:41 UTC
I was under the assumption that this offering was only going to net the culturally curious and potentially converted anyway. There is a rising sub-culture of Amarr faithful in both the Federation (in various forms) and the State; but nothing major at present. Simply put, it was my belief that this 'exchange' was by design aimed at tapping the undercurrents of curiosity and latent belief present in fringe Caldari loyalist capsuleers.

As a long time trader across the Caldari-Amarr border, I feel that this form of cultural exchange; a willing and voluntary submission of self to a different society, while that society seeks to provide an approximation of the culture to which I am accustomed in return, is noble. It is one of the things the Federation does well internally, that the cluster at large could embrace externally to great profit.

As ideological exchange and cultural cross-over was a stated part of this programme, I can't really find it as either insidious, or negatively impacting. Any participants, such as Enderas-haan, will bear the stamp of their time with this corporation even should they leave, any entities seeking detachment from Amarrian theism always have the power to say no - as small minded as I believe that to be.

Times are changing, and we aren't going to dissuade any culture from thinking of us as children, by acting as such.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-02-20 12:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
It's none of my business what individual persons choose to believe. It is my business, as it is the business of all Caldari, to worry about foreign interference in Caldari affairs.

If somebody's willing to be converted to Amarr, good luck to them. I think they're crazy, but it's their mind to waste as they see fit. But the Empire has not historically been satisfied with the table scraps. They'll take small liberties, then bigger ones. They'll push, and wheedle, and finagle, and insinuate, until you've gone from an outreach program picking at the desperate few who'd rather pray to another culture's god than try to fix their own problems themselves, to the point where the empire has its claws in enough to start demanding more.

I'm not advocating a ban, or censorship. I'm advocating putting the other argument out there, the powerful one that Amarr is a doctrine that is antithetical to the meritocratic ideals of the State. I can't and shouldn't make people's decisions for them - that's slavery. But I'll damn well fight tooth and nail to oppose whatever campaign the Amarr or anybody affiliated with them might set up. I'll be damned if I'll live to see the meritocratic ideals of the State supplanted by mindlessly kowtowing to the "chosen" of Dam-Torsad.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2013-02-20 12:54:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Oh yes. She's extremely skilled at not giving offense.

The thing that needs to be remembered is that the Amarr do want to convert us. It's kind of the stated purpose of the Empire, and the last time I checked PIE were Imperial loyalists. The objective of Amarr is to become the monoreligion, the one faith system of all of humanity in New Eden. And they're not stupid about pursuing that objective - if they think they can do it through flattery, inoffensiveness, diplomacy, pleasantries and outright lies, you can bet your beard they will try.

You watch, the oh-so-sincere declarations of wounded integrity will inevitably follow what I'm saying here. The words "We have nothing but respect for the Caldari people" in the mouth of an Amarr loyalist is a smooth deception. Make no mistake - to them, we're still heathens. It's just that we're heathens they feel safe enough using their subtler, slower tools on. They're the most dangerous kind of enemy, Tuulinen-haan - the one who is convincingly masquerading as a friend.

Am I accusing pilot Goldcore of knowingly spreading falsehoods? No, of course not. I'm sure she's perfectly sincere. The most convincing lies are the ones where the person disseminating them honestly believes they are the truth.


Last time I was on a battle field and someone came to my aid I didn't care if they had a leaflet to give out afterward of not. I was just grateful.

The Caldari have been close friends to the Khanid Kingdom for quite a while now. I find your remarks rather cutting Stitcher when if the Kingdom hasn't tried to convert you why would the Empire? Are we so different from each other aside from the Empire not sporting slick black ships?

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-02-20 12:57:56 UTC
Indeed we have. I've made the exact same arguments against that "friendship" too. Don't try and paint me as being inconsistent and opportunistic, pilot.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#25 - 2013-02-20 13:01:32 UTC
Wishing to convince others of the positives of one's culture and religion is not an evil, mister Stitcher. Nothing is being forced here. PIE would of course be very pleased if a transfer pilot did convert, but the choice to do so is his alone.

You are Caldari, mister Stitcher. Surely, as a Caldari, you would understand that there is nothing wrong with organizations and people each attempting to advertise their merits in comparison to their competitors? If someone is exposed to two drinks, each from competing companies, those companies have a right to promote their drink. It is up to the consumer to choose which drink he most prefers. If you wish the consumer to choose your drink, then you should promote your drink better, not attempt to completely deny your consumer the opportunity to ever test your opponent's drink out of your fear that he may purchase it instead.

Your fear that Caldari might be converted, is no reason for them to avoid seeking to experience our culture, or to share their own. It is no reason for them to avoid us, to avoid strengthening the bonds between our empires. It is their choice to participate in the program, and it is their choice if they wish to convert or hold to their original beliefs in the process.
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-02-20 13:05:15 UTC
Fair enough, I guess, Hakatain-haan.

I wish this initiative the best of luck, and hope that there might be a future culture of beneficial trade between our cultures. By lending force of arms today, we build the markets of tomorrow - AWEX will gladly consider any and all material needs in your staging area, should uptake of goods prove sufficient to justify shipping.

One question, will you be providing a cultural exchange channel or venue to sit alongside this venture - to allow those of us with commitments that restrict us from participating in this programme to visit, discuss and grow in tandem with your efforts? I would personally appreciate the chance to extend my understanding of the Amarr beyond an aesthetic appreciation for your cities and historical sites.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#27 - 2013-02-20 13:06:37 UTC
Aelisha wrote:
One question, will you be providing a cultural exchange channel or venue to sit alongside this venture - to allow those of us with commitments that restrict us from participating in this programme to visit, discuss and grow in tandem with your efforts? I would personally appreciate the chance to extend my understanding of the Amarr beyond an aesthetic appreciation for your cities and historical sites.


Such a venue will soon be opened. Mister Tuulinen has already had the opportunity to visit it and voice his thoughts.
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2013-02-20 13:09:36 UTC
Wonderful news.

I'd greatly appreciate if I could be notified of this venue's opening for public use. The Empire has been very kind to my investments in the past, and I feel that a deeper understanding of their capsuleer culture, as well as offering my own humble presentation of what I choose to represent, will only enhance such efforts.

Again, good luck and I appreciate the update.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-02-20 13:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Quote:
If you wish the consumer to choose your drink, then you should promote your drink better.


That is in fact exactly what I am doing - stepping up the marketing campaign.

Review what I have said - I have not called for you to be forbidden from entering the State, or advocated that this program of yours should be illegal. All I have done is expressed my views on what it is you really want, and where I think it leads. As I said - I have no authority, nor the right, to attempt to control what another person chooses to think and believe. Doing so constitutes slavery, to which I am absolutely opposed. People are free to frak up in my philosophy - and I am free to make it known that, in my view, converting to Amarr constitutes a massive frak-up. I am free to express the opinion that we should be distancing ourselves from the Empire and looking elsewhere for our allies. I'm all in favour of closer ties with the Republic, in fact.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-02-20 13:16:50 UTC
Captain Stitcher, there are two things you don't include in your analysis and yet, are most important.

First, you picture the AVCL as a one way process: Caldari come to the Amarr, get brainwashed, get converted. As I've seen inside the AVCL and by talking to its members, this is not the case. The AVCL is intended to be a two sided process, you know us, we know you. We create trust, we create bonds, we come to eachother's help. Some Caldari may be converted, but it could also perfectly be possible that amarrians be convinced of the good things in the corporation "way of life". Afterall, this is not a monologue, but a dialogue.

And second, Amarr aims to convert everyone to the one religion, that is true. But we have all eternity to do it, there's no hurry in it. We convert by taking slaves and teaching them the propper ways, and we do this when Crusades are called under the banner of the Reclaiming. There is an on-going Crusade now, but it's not under the banner of Reclaiming, as it is a defensive war in the Bleak Lands. We are even forbidden to capture new slaves by order of the Empress herself. So, even if we wanted to Reclaim you, we wouldn't be able to; and, certainly, even if we could, we'd leave our friends for the last, there's still much work to do with the Minmatarr and the Gallente.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Astera Zandraki
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-02-20 13:19:43 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Translation: "We want to convert you to our faith and command your fleets as is our divine right."

The Caldari don't need the Amarr: we should be forging diplomatic ties elsewhere, among the civilisations who don't regard us as children in need of an education.


I agree entirely.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-02-20 13:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
"I like you. When I rule the universe and all the worlds of creation bow to my throne, you will be spared until the very last"?

You realise that being saved for last still constitutes being a target, yes? I dislike being a target.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-02-20 13:23:00 UTC
No, it does not. You will be a target, of course, the Scriptures say so. But you will be so when the appropriate time comes for it. As things stand, it'll probably take centuries or even millenia for that to happen, and even if we're supposedly inmortal, I wouldn't count on still being here then.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-02-20 13:24:12 UTC
How curious, the little Caldari frolic to accept the embrace of the Amarr. Mmm, but the Amarr promise a rough approximation of the Caldari comforts, to ease them through this transition.

This reminds me, I wonder what of? I wonder, ah yes!

Now I remember, of the Gallente, when the Caldari were not so keen to be assimilated. Yet, just watch how they praise the silver-tongued witch before them.

How delightfully bizarre.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-02-20 13:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
Stitcher wrote:
I'm all in favour of closer ties with the Republic, in fact.


You make a wise point there, the Republic is notoriously politically unstable, plenty of opportunities for real-estate and purely financial mastery of local SCC markets. With closer diplomatic relationships, this might even extend to non-SCC, domestic markets, which would be quite lucrative for those with access to such tools.

Specific to this development, however, the Amarr have recently become the single largest contributor to the Caldari economy, apparently in a non-controlling, non-destructive manner. The least we can do is return the favour, and allow our friends to reap the benefits that come with unrestricted trade and cultural blurring in our border regions.

No one benefits from stagnaton, and even the ponderous but enduring Empire has recognised, in recent times, the need to catalyse their society. On the flipside, with recent events being what they are, we might benefit from learning a little restraint in some aspects of our society. A big ask, and an unlikely outcome from a capsuleer project that will always be of limited scale, but as a trial of methods and means to achieve a greater degree of dynamism on one side and stability on the other, it may just achieve something. I look forwards to seeing the product of this venture.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-02-20 13:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I appreciate your honesty, Sepherim.

Quote:
The least we can do is return the favour, and allow our friends to reap the benefits that come with unrestricted trade and cultural blurring in our border regions.


You realise that the entire point of the State's founding was that it was created in order to preserve Caldari ideals and culture against exactly that "blurring" effect?

I'm all for looking at the alternative point of view and scavenging the good, compatible bits so as to improve your own philosophy, but permitting "cultural blurring" goes against the very reason the State exists. If there's anything positive to be salvaged from the Amarr philosophy, we don't need to sacrifice our own mission to learn it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2013-02-20 13:37:16 UTC
Call me a Practical, it'd be pretty accurate, but surely the partitioning of 'blurred cultures' into organisations such as this serves both purposes?

Observe to learn the beneficial aspects and foster mutual respect through such 'interface subsidiaries', whilst partitioning and preserving your core corporate interests. There's no need to put State values on the line when individuals will volunteer to provide a neatly partitioned social interface zone of their own accord.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-02-20 13:43:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

You realise that the entire point of the State's founding was that it was created in order to preserve Caldari ideals and culture against exactly that "blurring" effect?


I must echo this. I am not a State citizen, I have never been a State citizen, which is why I am incredibly amused by this thread because even as an outsider I can appreciate what is happening.

Blathering, very non-Caldari sentiments everywhere and people being incredibly silly. I find the entertainment of this notion preposterous even from a Liberal.

I found it most titillating when that fool pulled the 'You are a Caldari, Stitcher, so surely you must understand...' routine.

Hmph. Perhaps I give the Caldari too much credit. I didn't realize that their warriors were so weak-minded, I had thought quite the opposite.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-02-20 13:44:10 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I appreciate your honesty, Sepherim.


I try to be honest with those I hope to be able to call friends, for honesty is the base of mutual understanding and, thus, of strong and true bonds being forged. And specially when, like now, one doesn't yet understand the cultural specifics of the other as much as I'd like.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-02-20 13:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
This is not fostering of mutual respect and understanding - this is scouting. As Sepherim acknowledged above, the Empire does not respect the State, but simply views us as being sufficiently compliant to be saved for last.

They do not respect us, we are under no obligation to respect them, nor their religion.

I understand social interfacing perfectly well - come on, my life for the last four or five years has been living in other cultures for the sake of learning and respecting. My agenda for being in the Republic these last twenty-two months has been to learm, and to determine which bits of Minmatar philosophy and lifestyle the Caldari can learn from. That is respect. I am here to be educated, not to educate in turn.

This outreach program of the Amarr's is... unhumble. It implicitly says "You have something to learn from us." If Amarrians want to come live in the State for a bit, watch, and go home with something to think about, that's excellent. If Caldari wish to go live in the Empire for a while and sample their outlook then that is not only something I applaud, it's something I've done.

If pilots wish to enter a "social interface zone" then the tools are already in place for them to do so on their own initiative. This program of PIE's is a propaganda engine, not an honest avenue for cross-cultural understanding.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders