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Pirate faction PVE only BS? Fix the Rattlesnake!
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-02-19 04:39:06 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.
I might go so far as to say they are like tier 3 battlecruisers (soon to be assault battlecruisers) in that their body is like a cruiser but their weapons are like battleship weapons. They may have cruiser signature resolution, but their tracking is slow enough that they have trouble hitting a stationary cruiser due to their own orbit of the thing.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-02-19 05:29:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
[Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)

Fighters are around the size of a Shuttle, most are actually smaller.



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.

By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.


Not -quite-. While sentries and heavies do have the same signature radii of cruisers, they have signature resolutions on their weapons matching that of battleships, while they have the dps, and hitpoints of frigates. They are less consistant. Less of a convincing case could be made for them, whereas Fighters have everything EXCEPT volume speaking to them being cruisers.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-02-19 05:42:11 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
[Fighters are for capitals. Fighters are cruiser sized (iirc. Thus, this would defy so much logic)

Fighters are around the size of a Shuttle, most are actually smaller.



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.

By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.


Not -quite-. While sentries and heavies do have the same signature radii of cruisers, they have signature resolutions on their weapons matching that of battleships, while they have the dps, and hitpoints of frigates. They are less consistant. Less of a convincing case could be made for them, whereas Fighters have everything EXCEPT volume speaking to them being cruisers.

In game size of a Firbolg 17m size of a Ogre 11m, signature raidus of a firbolg 100m signature raid us of an ogre 100m, weapon signature resolution of a firbolg 125m weapon signature resolution of Ogre 125m.

The only thing that is different from fighters vs large drones is current volume, a long time ago large drones were 5000m also but were reduced in size to make looting wrecks containing them easier.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#24 - 2013-02-19 09:23:41 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Pirate battleship are primarily used for PvE. Machariel atm is THE PvE-Battleship, Vindicator and Nightmare are Incrusion-farming machines.

while i agree that machariel is awesome at pve, it is ALSO king in pvp, specially if you need a bumping machine, i love to make carriers do 400+ m/s.

and a 2400+ m/s BS able to deliver 1k dps @ 60 km is awesome
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-02-19 15:35:06 UTC
The Bhaalgorn is the only pirate battleship used primarily for pvp.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-02-20 04:54:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.

By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.


Not -quite-. While sentries and heavies do have the same signature radii of cruisers, they have signature resolutions on their weapons matching that of battleships, while they have the dps, and hitpoints of frigates. They are less consistant. Less of a convincing case could be made for them, whereas Fighters have everything EXCEPT volume speaking to them being cruisers.

In game size of a Firbolg 17m size of a Ogre 11m, signature raidus of a firbolg 100m signature raid us of an ogre 100m, weapon signature resolution of a firbolg 125m weapon signature resolution of Ogre 125m.

The only thing that is different from fighters vs large drones is current volume, a long time ago large drones were 5000m also but were reduced in size to make looting wrecks containing them easier.


Tank:
Firbolg:
Shields 2500 Armor 3000 Structure 4500 (Low end battlecruiser level)
Ogre:
Shields 224 Armor 480 Structure 1184 (Frigate level)

Firbolg Armor resists, Thermal 35%, Kinetic 35%
Ogre Armor Resists, Thermal 45%, Kinetic 25%

Tracking:
Firbolg 0.1 rad/sec (Medium size weaponry)
Ogre 0.3 rad/sec (Small size weaponry)

Not to mention the drastic damage disparity, theres more than just a difference in volume.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-02-20 04:55:06 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
The Bhaalgorn is the only pirate battleship used primarily for pvp.


Largely due to the fact that it's terrible for pve. The Rattlesnake is better for PVP, than the Bhaalgorn is for pve, but you don't hear OP complaining about that =/
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-20 05:31:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arronicus wrote:



Fighters have the same armor and shields as cruisers, the same signature resolution on their guns, as cruiser size weapons (125m), and have the same, or bigger signature radii than cruisers. 75m on a scythe, compared to 100m on an Einherji. Yes, the VOLUME is directly comparable to that of a shuttle, but the craft itself, shares nearly all other attributes with cruisers. Sure, ccp can say "Oh, the length and width of the hull is the size of a frigate", but if the propulsion system is cruiser sized, the weapons are cruiser sized, the speed is that of a cruiser with and without the mwd on, and the signature radius is that of a cruiser, it IS cruiser sized.

By that logic heavy drones and sentry drones are the size of cruisers also.


Not -quite-. While sentries and heavies do have the same signature radii of cruisers, they have signature resolutions on their weapons matching that of battleships, while they have the dps, and hitpoints of frigates. They are less consistant. Less of a convincing case could be made for them, whereas Fighters have everything EXCEPT volume speaking to them being cruisers.

In game size of a Firbolg 17m size of a Ogre 11m, signature raidus of a firbolg 100m signature raid us of an ogre 100m, weapon signature resolution of a firbolg 125m weapon signature resolution of Ogre 125m.

The only thing that is different from fighters vs large drones is current volume, a long time ago large drones were 5000m also but were reduced in size to make looting wrecks containing them easier.


Tank:
Firbolg:
Shields 2500 Armor 3000 Structure 4500 (Low end battlecruiser level)
Ogre:
Shields 224 Armor 480 Structure 1184 (Frigate level)

Firbolg Armor resists, Thermal 35%, Kinetic 35%
Ogre Armor Resists, Thermal 45%, Kinetic 25%

Tracking:
Firbolg 0.1 rad/sec (Medium size weaponry)
Ogre 0.3 rad/sec (Small size weaponry)

Not to mention the drastic damage disparity, theres more than just a difference in volume.

Damage difference? What the 5 DPS difference when on a drone ship? And HP doesn't mean crap for how big something is if I put a 1600mm plate on a cruiser does it become a battleship?
Edit: also learn to read in context we were talking about the size of fighters vs heavy drones not there damage.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#29 - 2013-02-20 11:31:36 UTC
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the nightmare, the OP is ********.

I'm not even going to waste my breath responding to my opinion on his proposed suggestions just going to say this.

Most of the Pirate Battleships have very little use in PVP. The only 2 that really see regular use in the battlefield in regular space is the Macharial, which is a pretty common choice for highly experience solo'ers and the Vindicator, which apart from Highsec Pubbies who camp market undocks 'cos they're too scared to leave the safety of dock range, is only used really by the very rich groups of focused PVP alliances due to it's cost.

The only other see that see's use is the Bhaalgorn, but this is mostly in W-Space, outside of Wormholes it is not so commonly used in PVP.
Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#30 - 2013-02-20 11:48:53 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the nightmare, the OP is ********.

I'm not even going to waste my breath responding to my opinion on his proposed suggestions just going to say this.

Most of the Pirate Battleships have very little use in PVP. The only 2 that really see regular use in the battlefield in regular space is the Macharial, which is a pretty common choice for highly experience solo'ers and the Vindicator, which apart from Highsec Pubbies who camp market undocks 'cos they're too scared to leave the safety of dock range, is only used really by the very rich groups of focused PVP alliances due to it's cost.

The only other see that see's use is the Bhaalgorn, but this is mostly in W-Space, outside of Wormholes it is not so commonly used in PVP.


So recap:
Vindicator is one of the best solo hisec ships for canflipping people and the likes.
Machariel is one of the best solo 0.0 ships for roaming around.
Bhaalgorn is hands down the best neuting ship (and quite frequently used for that specific task when looking at Capitals, even outside WH space)

That is 3 out of 5 that have regular usage in PvP. How exactly does that translate to "Most of the Pirate Battleships have very little use in PVP." Shocked

Anyway, the Rattlensnake is fine the way it is. By OPs suggestion you would be turning it into a monster Vindicator, with the benefits of extra resistances, using XL-ASBs and the speed of caldari based ships that doesn't have to bring a 5bil fit to really soak up damage. No.

Rattlesnake fine is for more semi-afk oriented highsec PvE kind of play, and fits into a nice niche-role there. The balance between "tank" and "gank" should be maintained.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#31 - 2013-02-20 15:30:15 UTC
Weasel Juice wrote:
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the nightmare, the OP is ********.

I'm not even going to waste my breath responding to my opinion on his proposed suggestions just going to say this.

Most of the Pirate Battleships have very little use in PVP. The only 2 that really see regular use in the battlefield in regular space is the Macharial, which is a pretty common choice for highly experience solo'ers and the Vindicator, which apart from Highsec Pubbies who camp market undocks 'cos they're too scared to leave the safety of dock range, is only used really by the very rich groups of focused PVP alliances due to it's cost.

The only other see that see's use is the Bhaalgorn, but this is mostly in W-Space, outside of Wormholes it is not so commonly used in PVP.


So recap:
Vindicator is one of the best solo hisec ships for canflipping people and the likes.
Machariel is one of the best solo 0.0 ships for roaming around.
Bhaalgorn is hands down the best neuting ship (and quite frequently used for that specific task when looking at Capitals, even outside WH space)

That is 3 out of 5 that have regular usage in PvP. How exactly does that translate to "Most of the Pirate Battleships have very little use in PVP." Shocked

Anyway, the Rattlensnake is fine the way it is. By OPs suggestion you would be turning it into a monster Vindicator, with the benefits of extra resistances, using XL-ASBs and the speed of caldari based ships that doesn't have to bring a 5bil fit to really soak up damage. No.

Rattlesnake fine is for more semi-afk oriented highsec PvE kind of play, and fits into a nice niche-role there. The balance between "tank" and "gank" should be maintained.

you obviously never tried a rattle fleet, it is awesome too.

yet, for the price, you can affor others pirate faction ship that will perform better dps side, but then, it is a mater of taste.

all the pirate BS are pvp beast, provided they are used wisely, and some are also great PVE boats.

nothing wrong with that, each of them is the BS sized version of the cruisers, any complain about the cruisers?

vigilant is awesome close range killer
ashimu will wreck your cap like it was never there
gila packs shield and dones swarm
cynabal is still the bumping fast machine
etc....
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#32 - 2013-02-21 16:24:20 UTC
Rattlesnakes can be really nasty at pvp, even with just 4 torp launchers the DPS is quite respectable, add to that Ogres II and you very easily do damage on the 1000DPS range if not more.

their tank its obsene, I will repeat what I said before, people is just unwilling to sacrifice some tank for dps and tackle on some of this ships, that dosnt make them bad at pvp.

I think the problem is, people forget the fact on blob warfare this ships will become primary always, and there is no way to prevent them from insta popping in this case.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#33 - 2013-02-21 16:51:20 UTC
^^ Problem is applying that dps effectively and holding anything unless you have decently organised support doing that for you. Snakes can easily hold their own in a fight but the situations where they are well suited is quite limited. One quite nice thing about them is in pairs they can sustain upto 40K dps tanks (yes they can) - problem is easy to bump them out of RR range of each other in PVP.
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