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AAR to ASB comparison on PVE Vindi
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Glyphe Temare
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-02-20 00:14:00 UTC
When I returned from "shore leave" about a month ago, I found out about the ASB. Been fiddling around with it ever since in PVE. I found it frees up a lot of slots and with a bit more risk and micro-management involved, you get more rewards than using "standard" Gist XL SBs and as I found out, quite hilariously, even on traditionally armor tanked ships. :O

Been using one on a Vindi for a while now. Heck I even managed to get it to appear less suicide gank juicy ( at least for profit ) at much or less the same tank and more dps than my old Gist powered Nightmare.

Vindi fit:
[Vindicator, ASB]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Fourier Transform Tracking Program
Fourier Transform Tracking Program
Dread Guristas Co-Processor

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster ( 400s )
Limited Thermic Dissipation Field I
Limited Kinetic Deflection Field I
Limited Kinetic Deflection Field I
Limited Kinetic Deflection Field I

425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II

Large Hybrid Discharge Elutriation I
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Ionic Field Projector I

At all LVL5: 944 DPS, Range with AM 51/45 , ( VS guristas ) 1309/2 ( EFT numbers don't take into account reload time, hence the "/2" ) sustained tank.


Didn't use any deadspace modules, wanted it to be an apple to apple comparison with the AAR fit:

[Vindicator, AAR]
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer
Prototype Armor Kinetic Hardener I
Prototype Armor Kinetic Hardener I
Prototype Armor Thermic Hardener I
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I ( 800s )
Monopulse Tracking Mechanism I
Monopulse Tracking Mechanism I
Monopulse Tracking Mechanism I
Monopulse Tracking Mechanism I

425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II
425mm Railgun II

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

At all LVL5: 885 DPS, Range with AM 47/51 : , ( VS guristas ) 868/2 sustained tank


Now, I know what a few of you may be thinking...

-Guristas are easy to tank on both platforms, best rats for fair comparison.
-AAR and ASB aren't supposed to be PVE modules, well, that doesn't forbid me from using em that way :).
-Both have more or less the same range.
-Cost of both fits are more or less the same.
-Both fits, assuming guns aren't firing all the time, are cap stable.

With this taken care of, let's continue.

First off, I applaud CCP for the aforementioned symmetry even if they didn't use the same approach.

Second, cap efficiency on the armor ship is way, WAY below the shield ship, WTF?

Third, why does a ship that is supposed to be more efficent armor tanked is actually more efficient with a shield tank?

Fourth, I'm not even delving into deadspace fitted + implant scenarios where the comparison becomes even worse for the AAR.

Fifth, the AAR Vindi's got crap locking range...

Sixth, I can even fit a meta 4 damage control on the ASB ship for more tank and minimal gank/mission snafus satefy instead of the 2nd fourier. IOWs, the ASB fit is much more versatile.

I think the AAR came pre-nerfed.


Now... a way to "balance it".

Remove cap usage. You could remove the cap booster and replace it with a whatever. Free up CPU which is tight for better hardeners/TCs/whatevers. Frees up grid for rigs.

Change the 3x ratio of the AAR armor repair to 6.5x. You could remove the nano pumps, bringing down sustainable tank down to 590/2 at 3x and 1278/2 at 6.5x, bringing it more in line with implantless ASB, not even talking about crystal implants... You then have 3 free rigslots, 1 collision accel, bringing dps at 910, 1 discharge elutriation ( cap stable enough ), and an Ionic field, boosting lock range.

One more point for the higher ratio is the difference in tanking between T2 SBs and ASBs. The burst capability of the ASB compared to the T2 SB, is much higher, relatiely speaking than the AAR compared to the T2 LAR. Ain't doing the math here, you can do your own homework.

Invent something new to feed the AAR cause as someone else mentioned, the cost of feeding this thing would be counterproductive even compared to a navy fed ASB ( as I've been using on my vindi now for a while ). And don't get me started on "market supply/demand". I ain't a seer. I deal with facts in the here and now.

After modifications, we have a similar tank, DPS gap has been reduced. The nonsense has been filtered out and even tho I would still fly the ASB fit over the AAR one, the gap would've been reduced enough so that people may start to fly them anyway if they don't want to invest in crystal implants or can't use shield tanking cause of whatever.


Please, read the whole thing before replying, I know some won't but WTH, reading then stopping at whatever thing that you took offense to and instantaneously reply without reading the whole thing is counterproductive for everyone, including you.

Keep comments productive, we want ideas, not arguments. Arguments never settled any problem, ideas discussed calmly always ended up succeeding where the aforementioned failed. Keep that in mind, and have a nice day :).

P.S.: I ain't taking into account PVP, but the way I understood the other posts, seems like these ideas^^ would also help somewhat in the PVP department. Limiting ASB to 1 per ship + the aforemenioned changes would probably even things out a bit too. Remember... BURST tanking.
Drunken Bum
#2 - 2013-02-20 00:17:56 UTC
Vindi pve? You been drinkin, shpare shum for a buddy? No? Got a shmoke?

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-20 00:43:01 UTC
first of all for pve? Do not like the idea of either at all

ASB Vindi will die pretty fast its great banging on about cap stabilty on a module that when out of charges ***** the bed for a full minute while reloading leaving you at the mercy of your shield buffer, yes it can run without them but your cap will be dry in 3-4 cycles after the last cap charge.

AAR Vindi will tank like a champ on the intial hell death everything is firing at you, and once its out of paste it'll keep going and hopefully by that time, you would of cleared enough dps that you can hold the tank on 3/4 rep. Main point to take away is, it may use cap but its not absolutely useless when empty of charges.

I lied :o
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2013-02-20 00:54:05 UTC
Hmmm. I would not expect the AAR to be an efficient PVE mod. I don't feel like this is a failing in it's design, so it doesn't need "fixed".

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-20 01:05:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
The AAR really doesnt fit the way you want to use it, its more about semi short high rep engagements and not burst tanking.
Stick to the ASB or do something like this
This fit is cap stable with the edge of AAR reps in the first 90s of the fight, by then enough should be dead to run it without charges and before you go to next site/room you reload it.
Also a full load only takes up 0,64m3 so you can bring lots of reloads in your cargo.

[Vindicator, PvE AAR]
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Bouncer II x4
Hobgoblin II x5
stoicfaux
#6 - 2013-02-20 03:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Quibble: dividing by two is way off when determining sustained tank.

Glyphe Temare wrote:

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster ( 400s )
( VS guristas ) 1309/2 ( EFT numbers don't take into account reload time, hence the "/2" ) sustained tank.

XL-ASB can hold 7 t1 charges and has a 5 second cycle. 60 second reload.
(7*5) / (7*5+60) = 35 / 95 = .37, so 1309 * .37 = 482 sustained tank.



Quote:
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer
( VS guristas ) 868/2 sustained tank

AAR can hold 8 uses with a cycle of 11.25 seconds. 60 second reload.
(11.25 * 8) / (11.25 *8 + 60) = 90 / 150 = .6, so 868 * .6 = 520.8 sustained tank.


edit: lack of sleep

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-02-20 03:14:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hmmm. I would not expect the AAR to be an efficient PVE mod. I don't feel like this is a failing in it's design, so it doesn't need "fixed".

-Liang


It's not an efficient PVE mod compared to an ASB. And comparing them in PVP reveals it's not efficient either.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2013-02-20 03:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
I believe that remains to be seen, because the overall thing that needs to be balanced is ship effectiveness, not module effectiveness.

-Liang

Ed: Again, PVP in Eve is not properly conceptualized as sieged dreads shooting each other.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-02-20 03:27:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I believe that remains to be seen, because the overall thing that needs to be balanced is ship effectiveness, not module effectiveness.

-Liang

Ed: Again, PVP in Eve is not properly conceptualized as sieged dreads shooting each other.


The fact that ASBs are completely viable on ships that are unbonused, while using any armor reps on an unbonused ship is asking for your cap to run out at about the same time you find yourself in a pod.
Glyphe Temare
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-02-20 04:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Glyphe Temare
Drew Solaert wrote:
first of all for pve? Do not like the idea of either at all

ASB Vindi will die pretty fast its great banging on about cap stabilty on a module that when out of charges ***** the bed for a full minute while reloading leaving you at the mercy of your shield buffer, yes it can run without them but your cap will be dry in 3-4 cycles after the last cap charge.

AAR Vindi will tank like a champ on the intial hell death everything is firing at you, and once its out of paste it'll keep going and hopefully by that time, you would of cleared enough dps that you can hold the tank on 3/4 rep. Main point to take away is, it may use cap but its not absolutely useless when empty of charges.



Set auto-repeat off, problem solved.

Used that ASB Vindi in all the hardest standard Lvl4s, no problem yet. Of course you need some micro-management and sometimes need to reload before aggroing another group. Worlds Collide serpentis base comes to mind. Other than that, it performs admirably.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Hmmm. I would not expect the AAR to be an efficient PVE mod. I don't feel like this is a failing in it's design, so it doesn't need "fixed".

-Liang


Still ASB in PVE is pretty darn effective right now, replacing a Gist XL SB without breaking a sweat. So I'm basing my efficiency observations on the previous one and some extrapolation. AAR should be just as effective, but clearly isn't.

stoicfaux wrote:

XL-ASB can hold 7 t1 charges and has a 5 second cycle. 60 second reload.
(7*5) / (7*5+60) = 35 / 95 = .37, so 1309 * .37 = 482 sustained tank.

AAR can hold 8 uses with a cycle of 11.25 seconds. 60 second reload.
(11.25 * 8) / (11.25 *8 + 60) = 90 / 150 = .6, so 868 * .6 = 520.8 sustained tank.


You're right, but using navy the 7 charges become 9 tho, so:

45/105 = 0,4285714285714286

Hence: 1309 * ( 45/105 ) = 561

It's also cheaper than nanite repair paste.

But that changes the calculations a bit to tune the AAR to ASB levels on sustained.

Also you used rigged values, shield boat isn't rigged to buff shield tank. Comparison for both ships not rigged to boost tank ensues...

Correct math would then be:

Not rig boosted AAR

590 * 0.6 = 354

Compared to not rig boosted and cheaper to run ASB :

1309 * 0,4285714285714286 = 561

Adjustement to ratio would then be:

561/354 = 1,584745762711864 * 3 = 4,754237288135593

So pretty close to 5x to get a comparable sustained tank without using rigs to boost it on BOTH ships ( fair comparison ).

Thank you for reminding me of that error due to lack of attention :).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#11 - 2013-02-20 05:53:34 UTC
Glyphe Temare wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Hmmm. I would not expect the AAR to be an efficient PVE mod. I don't feel like this is a failing in it's design, so it doesn't need "fixed".

-Liang


Still ASB in PVE is pretty darn effective right now, replacing a Gist XL SB without breaking a sweat. So I'm basing my efficiency observations on the previous one and some extrapolation. AAR should be just as effective, but clearly isn't.


That part. It's wrong.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#12 - 2013-02-20 08:58:03 UTC
PVE Vindi?...

go get a raven
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-02-20 10:17:34 UTC
AAR is better than a normal AR for 19 cycles then a t2 catches up



That said armor tanking is generally worse for PVE because lvl 4's are really easy to tank so gank is better.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ctzn Snips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-02-20 14:19:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Glyphe Temare wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Hmmm. I would not expect the AAR to be an efficient PVE mod. I don't feel like this is a failing in it's design, so it doesn't need "fixed".

-Liang


Still ASB in PVE is pretty darn effective right now, replacing a Gist XL SB without breaking a sweat. So I'm basing my efficiency observations on the previous one and some extrapolation. AAR should be just as effective, but clearly isn't.


That part. It's wrong.

-Liang


So that part's wrong, are you saying the AAR should be just as effective at PVP? Because it isn't.
Captain Dralisz
Inaya Innovations
#15 - 2013-02-20 14:58:55 UTC
LoL man the AAR will cost you 2,2M isk / 2min to run... have fun in the pve! ;)