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EVE Online is an Ecosystem
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Kate stark
#21 - 2013-02-19 11:54:28 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
As a former null-sec miner, I can verify that pretty much everything Stanz is saying is true. Nullsec mining is safe because the players make it that way, not because of game mechanics.


local chat.

now not a game mechanic. aight!


Are you trying to say that High sec and null sec have the same levels and reasons for safety? Local chat isn't the only reason it's safe, you know...


as i said, local is all you need to mine safely in null sec.
hence, it is game mechanics that keep you safe.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-02-19 11:57:02 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:


Wormhole mining is pretty profitable too, right? At least as far as mining goes?


Actually, not really. ABCs are barely more profitable than veld.... and by barely I mean A is like 20% more profitable and B and C are about 0% more profitable. Combine that with the suck refine available at a POS and time wasted transporting ore to market, and you find WH mining to be way less profitable than high sec.

Lapine Davion wrote:

All these arguments about profitability are irrelevant until mining stops being the most boring thing to do.


If you don't enjoy it, then don't do it. Leave it for those of us that actually enjoy mining, manufacturing, producing, while having no interest in PVP.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#23 - 2013-02-19 11:58:14 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
As a former null-sec miner, I can verify that pretty much everything Stanz is saying is true. Nullsec mining is safe because the players make it that way, not because of game mechanics.


local chat.

now not a game mechanic. aight!


Are you trying to say that High sec and null sec have the same levels and reasons for safety? Local chat isn't the only reason it's safe, you know...


as i said, local is all you need to mine safely in null sec.
hence, it is game mechanics that keep you safe.


Have you honestly ever mined in null?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Kate stark
#24 - 2013-02-19 11:59:42 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
As a former null-sec miner, I can verify that pretty much everything Stanz is saying is true. Nullsec mining is safe because the players make it that way, not because of game mechanics.


local chat.

now not a game mechanic. aight!


Are you trying to say that High sec and null sec have the same levels and reasons for safety? Local chat isn't the only reason it's safe, you know...


as i said, local is all you need to mine safely in null sec.
hence, it is game mechanics that keep you safe.


Have you honestly ever mined in null?


yep. in fountain. with some rather nice french people. (nice french people. i know, right?)

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#25 - 2013-02-19 11:59:51 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:


Wormhole mining is pretty profitable too, right? At least as far as mining goes?


Actually, not really. ABCs are barely more profitable than veld.... and by barely I mean A is like 20% more profitable and B and C are about 0% more profitable. Combine that with the suck refine available at a POS and time wasted transporting ore to market, and you find WH mining to be way less profitable than high sec.

Lapine Davion wrote:

All these arguments about profitability are irrelevant until mining stops being the most boring thing to do.


If you don't enjoy it, then don't do it. Leave it for those of us that actually enjoy mining, manufacturing, producing, while having no interest in PVP.



So basically mining is really not profitable. That's why I got out of it. Also because it is painfully boring. The most fun I had mining was being drunk on Mumble with my friends. Otherwise it was just a dull, boring grind.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-02-19 12:03:43 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:

Have you honestly ever mined in null?


I have.... Twice I've left high sec and moved to null. Both times, all it takes is one AFK cloaky ship, and we can't play. Don't even bother logging on for weeks at a time. Can't keep accounts funded on PLEX, because there is one guy that logs in moments after downtime, cloaks up, then goes AFK fro 23 hours.

And unlike high sec, I can't just drop out of player corp to an NPC corp and return to ... you know.... actually playing the game.

Want to get more carebears out of high sec? Fix the broken afk cloaky problem that drives us all out of null.



WE ARE NOT going to mine if it is unsafe to do so. WE ARE NOT ever going to just accept being easy targets. We will either be safe, or we won't play the game.

SO, instead of wasting your time dreaming of ways to make us carebears less safe so that we'll be easy target for PVPers, the PVPers need to spend their time thinking about ways to improve PVP between players that actually enjoy PVP.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-02-19 12:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Uisen
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
As a former null-sec miner, I can verify that pretty much everything Stanz is saying is true. Nullsec mining is safe because the players make it that way, not because of game mechanics.


local chat.

now not a game mechanic. aight!


Are you trying to say that High sec and null sec have the same levels and reasons for safety? Local chat isn't the only reason it's safe, you know...


as i said, local is all you need to mine safely in null sec.
hence, it is game mechanics that keep you safe.


Have you honestly ever mined in null?


Unless you are living alone in null, someone is most likely going to spot the hostiles in local before they reach the mining system. Local works for you even before they reach the system, it's very unlikely that the miners don't know about a imminent attack before it happens, because you can't hide yourself from local.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-02-19 12:06:26 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
[
So basically mining is really not profitable. That's why I got out of it. Also because it is painfully boring. The most fun I had mining was being drunk on Mumble with my friends. Otherwise it was just a dull, boring grind.



Mining can be quite profitable. 4 accounts filling an orca with 30 million ISK worth of ore every 20 minutes.

It is just that WH mining is not as profitable as high sec, and null sec is no more profitable than high sec, because it too can be done quite safely.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-02-19 12:12:28 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:

Unless you are living alone in null, someone is most likely going to spot the hostiles in local before they reach the mining system. Local works for you even before they reach the system, it's very unlikely that the miners don't know about a imminent attack before it happens, because they can't hide yourself from local.


AND, if you could hide yourself from local to make it wasier to seak up on carebears and kill them, then there would not be any carebears in the game.



Look, if I get a wardec, I don't mine. This costs me 1 billion ISK in opportunity cost.

I could buy some cheap t1 barges, so mine, watch local safe up if a war target logs on, maybe lose focus, and if the war targets manage to kill a coupe pargers I'm out maybe 100 million ISK. So, mining in cheap barges during war is more profitable than not making any ISK because I didn't mine at all.


AND STILL, it is better to take the 1 billion ISK loss from not mining than to make 900 million and lose a barge or two. Why? Because I do NOT want to end up on a kill board as an easy target. All that causes is more war decs, more failed PVPers that can't win against other PVPers, coming around looking for easy kills.

Carebears are not to the thought of as easy kills. They won't play if game mechanics are changed to make then easier to kill.
Kate stark
#30 - 2013-02-19 12:14:21 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Dante Uisen wrote:

Unless you are living alone in null, someone is most likely going to spot the hostiles in local before they reach the mining system. Local works for you even before they reach the system, it's very unlikely that the miners don't know about a imminent attack before it happens, because they can't hide yourself from local.


AND, if you could hide yourself from local to make it wasier to seak up on carebears and kill them, then there would not be any carebears in the game.



Look, if I get a wardec, I don't mine. This costs me 1 billion ISK in opportunity cost.

I could buy some cheap t1 barges, so mine, watch local safe up if a war target logs on, maybe lose focus, and if the war targets manage to kill a coupe pargers I'm out maybe 100 million ISK. So, mining in cheap barges during war is more profitable than not making any ISK because I didn't mine at all.


AND STILL, it is better to take the 1 billion ISK loss from not mining than to make 900 million and lose a barge or two. Why? Because I do NOT want to end up on a kill board as an easy target. All that causes is more war decs, more failed PVPers that can't win against other PVPers, coming around looking for easy kills.

Carebears are not to the thought of as easy kills. They won't play if game mechanics are changed to make then easier to kill.


after reading this post, i think you have an issue that's totally unrelated to game mechanics or high sec, or null sec, or anything like that.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-02-19 12:24:26 UTC
>0.5 = Veld only
0.5 = Veld + Plag
<0.5 = all but ABC
0.0 = all in much larger quantities

Pretty sure that'd solve your "issue"
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-02-19 12:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
Kate stark wrote:
after reading this post, i think you have an issue that's totally unrelated to game mechanics or high sec, or null sec, or anything like that.



Correct. My issue is that I have no desire to be an easy kill for some punk that is trying to grow his eppen by padding his kill stats with mining barges and exhumers.


Some people think they are the best PVPer ever and play the game looking for kills to prove it.

Others of us know that we suck at PVP, have no interest in PVP, and don't need to be pasted all over other peoples' kill boards to prove what we already know.


You may say, well then EVE is not the game for me. You are wrong. CCP has provided, in EVE, many tools that allow me to play the game the way I enjoy playing it. I spend my days mining and producing, in relative safety.

CCP knows that players like me represent a significant portion of their revenue stream, and if they take away those tools that make/keep me relatively safe, I'll quit. PVPers can rant and rave all they want about how much it sucks that I can play the game in relative safety, and HOW much better the game would be if they could just get rid of those tools that keep me safe so they could have more fun blowing up my mining ships. In reality, ALL that would do is make me stop playing the game. Which is exactly why CCP won't do it.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-02-19 12:30:51 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
>0.5 = Veld only
0.5 = Veld + Plag
<0.5 = all but ABC
0.0 = all in much larger quantities

Pretty sure that'd solve your "issue"


Why do you want CCP to go bankrupt?
Kate stark
#34 - 2013-02-19 12:35:28 UTC
if it'll stop you playing the game because pvp happens, then this isn't the game for you. no matter how much money you throw at ccp.

also i find it hilarious you'd sacrifice playing the game over trivial losses of mining barges. (which, are trivial to lose).

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-02-19 12:40:25 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
>0.5 = Veld only
0.5 = Veld + Plag
<0.5 = all but ABC
0.0 = all in much larger quantities

Pretty sure that'd solve your "issue"


Why do you want CCP to go bankrupt?


Why would they go bankrupt?
We have no numbers of the running cost of eve\ccp.
We have no numbers of income etc for ccp.
(If people have these numbers then send them my way and we can extrapolate a guess of things that may happen.)

Given this total lack of data how would "adjusting" the game in this fashion, give that it would address the issue you're having with people hiding in highsec because they can play without playing.

What's the other sollution to this issue?
Because I know that "a ship that can mine more" is not the answer you're looking for. Unless it's a single custom ship just for you, all that would do is bork the mineral market further.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#36 - 2013-02-19 12:41:21 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Joran Dravius wrote:
So someone posts an article with a well thought out and explained opinion...


Sounds like something worth reading, please post a link to the thread.


LOL

I looked all over the first post and couldn't find it either. :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-02-19 13:00:02 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
if they take away those tools that make/keep me relatively safe, I'll quit. PVPers can rant and rave all they want about how much it sucks that I can play the game in relative safety, and HOW much better the game would be if they could just get rid of those tools that keep me safe so they could have more fun blowing up my mining ships. In reality, ALL that would do is make me stop playing the game. Which is exactly why CCP won't do it.

Many thanks for this, it's exactly this type of whinging self centred opinion that will help to get James 315 to the CSM and hopefully introduce a long needed change to this game.
I fully expect CCP not to notice the tiny dip in revenue that the loss of your kind will cause, due to the extra subs obtained by many people returning to the cold dark game they used to enjoy before the risk averse started to take it over.
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-02-19 13:16:50 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
1) null sec mining is safe because of local. you don't even need an intel channel. if you can enter a system, scan down, warp to, and tackle a mining ship before they can warp to a pos, good luck. barges aren't *that* slow.

You've obviously never been on the recieving end of a fast roaming gang jumping in and 'bombursting' the belts; by the time you see local spike they're already in warp.

Ofc, you wouldn't have seen that due to there not being any fast roaming gangs anymore, mainly because there are no targets for them, all the targets sitting nice and safe in hi-sec, swearing that they will leave and take their 400 accounts with them if CCP dare try and make them play with others.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-02-19 13:21:41 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
Many thanks for this, it's exactly this type of whinging self centred opinion that will help to get James 315 to the CSM and hopefully introduce a long needed change to this game.


The CSM is known to make game changing decisions, and forcing CCP to implement them... James 315 is just a sheepherder, and you are the sheep.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-02-19 13:32:41 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:


Wormhole mining is pretty profitable too, right? At least as far as mining goes?


Actually, not really. ABCs are barely more profitable than veld.... and by barely I mean A is like 20% more profitable and B and C are about 0% more profitable. Combine that with the suck refine available at a POS and time wasted transporting ore to market, and you find WH mining to be way less profitable than high sec.



Is this chart wrong then?
http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
Arkonor in particular seems to have quite a lead on highsec stuff.

I would like to see the refining profitability switched. POSes should be 100% efficient, NPC stations should always take a cut.