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If clones were free would more PVP?
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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2013-02-19 07:09:43 UTC
And in any case, while I agree with Marlona Sky that clone costs are a problem, I don't think removing them entirely would be the right course of action because the game does need ISK sinks, and while he addresses that problem by removing insurance to compensate I believe that would also be a mistake because insurance is one of the rare game mechanics that seems to help new players and smaller groups more than large ones. If insurance were removed large groups would still be able to reimburse their losses as they do now but smaller groups or newer players would have a much more difficult time replacing their own losses.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#142 - 2013-02-19 09:06:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And in any case, while I agree with Marlona Sky that clone costs are a problem, I don't think removing them entirely would be the right course of action because the game does need ISK sinks, and while he addresses that problem by removing insurance to compensate I believe that would also be a mistake because insurance is one of the rare game mechanics that seems to help new players and smaller groups more than large ones. If insurance were removed large groups would still be able to reimburse their losses as they do now but smaller groups or newer players would have a much more difficult time replacing their own losses.


I believe the default insurance should be removed, that you always had to buy the insurance first or get nothing, and that the duration of this insurance should be between 2-4 weeks, that would be better...

As for clone cost, I don't think it should be removed completely... it should just be reduced a lot... I currently say 45 mil per clone, and I'm slowly getting tired of paying so much, so I can't enjoy flying cheaper ships...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Jaden Li
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-02-19 09:38:32 UTC
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.

It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#144 - 2013-02-19 10:07:56 UTC
Jaden Li wrote:
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.

It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.


You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#145 - 2013-02-19 10:40:32 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Jaden Li wrote:
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.

It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.


You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?


There comes a point when more sp only means being able to do more different things equally well... doesn't mean that you become better than everyone else in all the ships

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Seetesh
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-02-19 10:44:58 UTC
Several of my toons have over 120mil sp and it can be a little annoying as i will have them all fitted with implants and HGs. But playing since 2003 i have amassed wealth ships and cans of implants and clones over 40mil isk each arent a problem anymore.
Jaden Li
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-02-19 10:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaden Li
Bubanni wrote:


There comes a point when more sp only means being able to do more different things equally well... doesn't mean that you become better than everyone else in all the ships



Yep - and the person posting above you is one of the many who fails to understand this point. Just like the belief that more SP justifies an exponentially more expensive clone because we can ofcourse kill our rats 20 times faster than someone with 50mil sp. Wait what!?
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#148 - 2013-02-19 11:24:59 UTC
Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Thrash Cutter
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2013-02-19 11:50:35 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
If clones were free would more PvP?


No. My 12mil SP clone cost doesn't stop me from PvPing as much as I would like to. Having to either do dailies or pay cash to PvP on a semi-regularly level does. But then again, what's an MMO without dailies?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#150 - 2013-02-19 13:00:01 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Jaden Li wrote:
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.

It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.


You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#151 - 2013-02-19 13:36:45 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun.


Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall"

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#152 - 2013-02-19 13:39:26 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Jaden Li wrote:
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.

It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.


You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.


You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2013-02-19 13:40:00 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Takseen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

In lowsec.


People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable!





Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.



They appear to be an impediment to pvp activity? Judging by the kill stats on my Starmap atleast.
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#154 - 2013-02-19 13:40:10 UTC
Thrash Cutter wrote:
Pewty McPew wrote:
If clones were free would more PvP?


No. My 12mil SP clone cost doesn't stop me from PvPing as much as I would like to. Having to either do dailies or pay cash to PvP on a semi-regularly level does. But then again, what's an MMO without dailies?


Mission running in Eve is ALL about 'dailies'...
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2013-02-19 13:46:54 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Lfod Shi wrote:
Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun.


Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall"


I think the guy you quoted feels that all Eve pvp is inherently nonconsensual, or something. Like pirates ambushing miners or mission runners. Certainly I'd feel worse doing that then pewpewing wartargets or pirates who have clearly shot other people in the past.
Likewise I get more stressed when attacked by a random person compared to a wartarget.

Tis all very interesting psychologically.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-02-19 13:47:59 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:

You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.


After a certain point, extra SP just adds versatility, not income generation. And yet the clone costs instead of flattening out to match this, balloon enormously. See the chart posted earlier.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#157 - 2013-02-19 13:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:


You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.


You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
Without doubt, you don't understand how SP works in this game.

Also I live in low sec and still think this is a bad mechanic. Seems the only one sucking here is you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2013-02-19 13:53:50 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.

If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?



No.

The cost of the clone is genreally cheap compared to the cost of the implants.

The ISK cost of losing ships and clones is relatively insignificant compared to the profit potential of most in game activities. An hour of carebearing can replace a dozen small ships or a couple large ships.


The people that do not PVP either 1) have no interest in PVP or 2) Really want to avoid being on someone's kill board stats.

Free clones would not change either of these factors.
Danu Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#159 - 2013-02-19 14:39:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this:

Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of...

Quote:
Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.

So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.

♥ CCP


The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place.
Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2013-02-19 17:13:58 UTC
Danu Charante wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this:

Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of...

Quote:
Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.

So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.

♥ CCP


The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place.
Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land.

And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not.