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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

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Obvious Cyno
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2013-02-18 23:55:31 UTC
Didn't read.

Because of falcon?
Kate stark
#282 - 2013-02-18 23:56:13 UTC
Obvious Cyno wrote:
Didn't read.

Because of falcon?


yes.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Josef Djugashvilis
#283 - 2013-02-19 07:38:28 UTC
I rather suspect CCP does not really like multi-boxing, but quite likes the money they get from the extra accounts used by the multi-box set-ups.

This is not a signature.
dark heartt
#284 - 2013-02-19 07:44:48 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I'd say it's about even. 1 person running 20 accounts won't be nearly as effective as 20 people running 1 account each.


This is pretty much the end of that argument. While I was in RvB there was a guy who ran a 4 account multibox setup (Hi SG-1 Team) to 'solo' and we took him out with 3 guys who were working together on comms. There is no 'power advantage' to multiboxing unless you are talking about mining, and lets face it, there is more than enough to go around with that.


I'd like to hear more of this story. Was his problem simply lack of combat experience? Poorly skilled pilots? Poorly fitted ships?


No his problem involved us being as good if not better than him. So the one guy using a multibox setup with 4 accounts was beaten by 3 regular pilots who were pretty good at working together.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Josef Djugashvilis
#285 - 2013-02-19 07:46:15 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
The game is designed so that numbers trump skill, which means multiboxing is by design a legitimate way to get ahead. It's not botting. Get that idea out of your head. A human is responsible for all of the input and decisions.

Multiboxing benefits the health of the game overall. The multiboxers actually subsidize your subscription by paying for so many themselves. The extra accounts fund CCP's creation of new features that you will benefit from.

I think what all this crying is really about is people who feel entitled to the success that others have achieved. They see a successful miner with 20 accounts and wonder "why am I only making 10m per hour?". Their instinct is to blame the success of the other guy on "botting" or "cheating", but the truth is he's just better than you and you need to deal with it. If multiboxing is so overpowered why aren't you doing it yourself?


A multi-boxer is not 'better' in any way shape or form.

They simply have more accounts managed by one person completing a task (generally mining) in parallel.

This is not a signature.
Yui Okane-Mochi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2013-02-19 08:59:57 UTC
Long thread to read :)

I multibox 9 hulks, an orca, and a charon with ISboxer - All on one machine with 5 screens hooked up. Haven't tried key duplication yet as the crew is still manageable. Don't think I will push things further as I do not wish to run eve across multiple machines.

I value ISBoxer mostly for the display management system. I don't think I'd multibox if I had to alt tab all my accounts.

One thing to add... As far as mining ops go, 1 experienced multiboxer controlling 10 accounts will almost certainly beat 10 single players trying to work together in a mine op by a large margin. Too many cooks spoil the broth.

結衣
Dusty Meg
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2013-02-19 09:32:59 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I rather suspect CCP does not really like multi-boxing, but quite likes the money they get from the extra accounts used by the multi-box set-ups.


Really so thats why they give 3 free eve accounts to each dev?

Creater of the EVE animated influence map http://www.youtube.com/user/DustMityEVE
Kate stark
#288 - 2013-02-19 12:15:13 UTC
Dusty Meg wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I rather suspect CCP does not really like multi-boxing, but quite likes the money they get from the extra accounts used by the multi-box set-ups.


Really so thats why they give 3 free eve accounts to each dev?


isn't that because when you become a dev, all of your old accounts get nuked?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Lady Gwenn
3nkil Corporation2
#289 - 2013-02-19 12:33:43 UTC
/signed
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-02-19 15:04:33 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
The game is designed so that numbers trump skill, which means multiboxing is by design a legitimate way to get ahead. It's not botting. Get that idea out of your head. A human is responsible for all of the input and decisions.

Multiboxing benefits the health of the game overall. The multiboxers actually subsidize your subscription by paying for so many themselves. The extra accounts fund CCP's creation of new features that you will benefit from.

I think what all this crying is really about is people who feel entitled to the success that others have achieved. They see a successful miner with 20 accounts and wonder "why am I only making 10m per hour?". Their instinct is to blame the success of the other guy on "botting" or "cheating", but the truth is he's just better than you and you need to deal with it. If multiboxing is so overpowered why aren't you doing it yourself?



Of one person. Multiboxing "replicates" (meaning the player is not controlling the extra accounts, a program is doing it for you) the additional clicking.

Any question or argument about subs is moot since it isn't our responsibility to maintain CCP's business model.

I'm not crying about multiboxing, I have used similiar things before in the past. I just don't agree with them in this game. This game is based on interaction and player to player actions. Not automation.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#291 - 2013-02-19 15:06:43 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?



you can duplicate stuff without automation, as much as you can automate without duplicating stuff, ergo, duplication does not imply automation.

you can automate a duplication task, like the printers do, but you can run duplication tasks without automation. both are combinable, but at the same time independent of each other.


so, again for the nth time, programs like ISBoxer that require somebody at the helm and do not in any way increase the frequency of clicks beyond what a person can do and more importantly demand that someone needs to be in constant control are, by the rules explicit on Eve's EULA, not ilegal, nor creating extra income, nor automating anything at all.




in fact, if you want to ban ISBoxer, please petition to remove the "warp fleet to" option from gangs, since it's pretty much the same darn thing.



You cannot duplicate in a game without automation if you as a person only click once. Something is automated at that point to duplicate an action. The fact you are AUTOMATING a DUPLICATE action across additional accounts from the one you are manually controlling is what we are talking about here.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#292 - 2013-02-19 15:29:05 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Kate stark wrote:


except botting is a totally different subject and as such you're comparing apples to oranges.
i'm not comparing anything i'm just stating how multiboxing doesn't even come close to breaching the eula.

you slightly failed to overlook that a multiboxer is also paying 20x more slices of pie to play the game, but hey, let's only compare like for like when it suits you, shall we?

in any case, i'm not here to discuss botting this thread has nothing to do with botting.


I'm simply pointing out that your argument that
"Because ISBoxing doesn't make Mackinaws mine faster - its A-OK!!!"
is irrelevant.

The reason that botting annoys people is because it breaks the work/reward equation build into the game.
Zero units of work in, 20 rewards out.

ISBoxing, likewise, annoys people for identical reasons, breaking the work/reward equation.
One unit of work in, 20 rewards out.

"Oh, but he still put in one unit of work, so its not botting, therefore, its OK!"

No it isn't.
Not if a 3rd party software tool is being used to multiply that unit of work 20, 50 or 100 times.
Multiboxing is fine - if the boxes are being manually controlled without click replication.
After all, game interface is DESIGNED to put limits on what you can do, and how fast you can do them.
Perhaps growing a tail, or extra arms will help, but I'd check with CCP first.

The long and the short of its? If its not currently against EULA, it should be. Which is the point of this thread.
To revisit the policy -especially in light of the recent ill-advised changes to cargo capacity for Macks/Retrievers.


i'm sorry, how is it irrelevant? that's the exact criteria that defines whether or not it breaks the eula, how can the defining criteria be irrelevant?

i don't care about botting, this thread isn't about botting, it's about multiboxing.

except, it doesn't break the work/reward. because the ships all do the same work, get the same reward, and that work and reward is the same for everyone, because that's how the game works. it's not like the ships magically do more dps, mine more ore etc just because i have 30 clients open on my taskbar.

multiboxing doesn't change the fact that the client stops you updating market orders more frequently than every 5 mins, for example. otherwise, that would break the eula because you'd be undercutting people more frequently giving you a higher probability of being the lowest sell order, which means you'd be gaining isk faster than normal game play. multiboxing, does nothing like that, though.



You keep saying it isn't about botting yet you use the same justifications for botting in your arguments.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-02-19 18:02:00 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?



you can duplicate stuff without automation, as much as you can automate without duplicating stuff, ergo, duplication does not imply automation.

you can automate a duplication task, like the printers do, but you can run duplication tasks without automation. both are combinable, but at the same time independent of each other.


so, again for the nth time, programs like ISBoxer that require somebody at the helm and do not in any way increase the frequency of clicks beyond what a person can do and more importantly demand that someone needs to be in constant control are, by the rules explicit on Eve's EULA, not ilegal, nor creating extra income, nor automating anything at all.




in fact, if you want to ban ISBoxer, please petition to remove the "warp fleet to" option from gangs, since it's pretty much the same darn thing.



You cannot duplicate in a game without automation if you as a person only click once. Something is automated at that point to duplicate an action. The fact you are AUTOMATING a DUPLICATE action across additional accounts from the one you are manually controlling is what we are talking about here.
if I was automating a duplicate action across additional accounts, I wouldn't be at the controls. you are not automating nothing at all because you are at the controls. hell I could be running 100000 accounts at the same time with ISBoxer and it wouldn't still be automation because I am controlling all of them directly.

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[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#294 - 2013-02-19 18:14:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kal Mindar wrote:
Why are they allowed to hit 1 button and insta warp 30 characters to safety instead of dealing with the consequences of not being able to manually move them all in time to prevent a gank.
Simple: because nothing is being automated — it's all direct player input.


^^^ When there is a warm blooded player that can make mistakes, that can wane when vigilantly watching local, and that operates using many accounts, I really don't have an issue with it...

Botting is much, much different than multiboxing.... and I don't have an issue with people multiboxing...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2013-02-19 20:08:16 UTC
Why is this thread still going?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kate stark
#296 - 2013-02-19 20:09:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why is this thread still going?


reading the eula, it's hard.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2013-02-19 20:12:42 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?



you can duplicate stuff without automation, as much as you can automate without duplicating stuff, ergo, duplication does not imply automation.

you can automate a duplication task, like the printers do, but you can run duplication tasks without automation. both are combinable, but at the same time independent of each other.


so, again for the nth time, programs like ISBoxer that require somebody at the helm and do not in any way increase the frequency of clicks beyond what a person can do and more importantly demand that someone needs to be in constant control are, by the rules explicit on Eve's EULA, not ilegal, nor creating extra income, nor automating anything at all.




in fact, if you want to ban ISBoxer, please petition to remove the "warp fleet to" option from gangs, since it's pretty much the same darn thing.



You cannot duplicate in a game without automation if you as a person only click once. Something is automated at that point to duplicate an action. The fact you are AUTOMATING a DUPLICATE action across additional accounts from the one you are manually controlling is what we are talking about here.
if I was automating a duplicate action across additional accounts, I wouldn't be at the controls. you are not automating nothing at all because you are at the controls. hell I could be running 100000 accounts at the same time with ISBoxer and it wouldn't still be automation because I am controlling all of them directly.


You are at the controls when you click once. For that once. The rest is (wait for it)... automated.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2013-02-19 20:31:37 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?



you can duplicate stuff without automation, as much as you can automate without duplicating stuff, ergo, duplication does not imply automation.

you can automate a duplication task, like the printers do, but you can run duplication tasks without automation. both are combinable, but at the same time independent of each other.


so, again for the nth time, programs like ISBoxer that require somebody at the helm and do not in any way increase the frequency of clicks beyond what a person can do and more importantly demand that someone needs to be in constant control are, by the rules explicit on Eve's EULA, not ilegal, nor creating extra income, nor automating anything at all.




in fact, if you want to ban ISBoxer, please petition to remove the "warp fleet to" option from gangs, since it's pretty much the same darn thing.



You cannot duplicate in a game without automation if you as a person only click once. Something is automated at that point to duplicate an action. The fact you are AUTOMATING a DUPLICATE action across additional accounts from the one you are manually controlling is what we are talking about here.
if I was automating a duplicate action across additional accounts, I wouldn't be at the controls. you are not automating nothing at all because you are at the controls. hell I could be running 100000 accounts at the same time with ISBoxer and it wouldn't still be automation because I am controlling all of them directly.


You are at the controls when you click once. For that once. The rest is (wait for it)... automated.
is it automated or is it transmitted at the same time to all clients? you can duplicate a signal without automate it you know? it's called a parallel circuit. you put a button directly connected to n parallel circuits, all of them equal and when you press the button all these circuits will "see" that it was you that pressed that button, and not some robot that is pressing it for you.


by the gods, mechatronics course is starting to be usefulP

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-02-19 20:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
That's not how keybroadcasters work however. Or any G15 keyboards with built in macros, or any 3rd party software used to multibox.

Now.. if you wanted to build a robotic arm to mimic your physical motions to manipulate multiple systems at once..... now you're talking!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2013-02-19 20:50:32 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
That's not how keybroadcasters work however.

it's the same principle tho.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right