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If clones were free would more PVP?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#121 - 2013-02-18 23:26:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pewty McPew wrote:
Takseen wrote:
I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs


Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt.

Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you.


I PVP with 100M SP characters pretty frequently....

-Liang

Where?


Low sec and WH space.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-02-19 00:22:22 UTC
Takseen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

In lowsec.


People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable!



With no bubbles!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-02-19 00:36:01 UTC
Takseen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

In lowsec.


People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable!





Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#124 - 2013-02-19 01:09:34 UTC
Free clones? Count me in! I'd be all about losing ships as fast as I could build them (and that's pretty fast).

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#125 - 2013-02-19 01:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.


These are null sec characteristic elements.
It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs.

Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization.

And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill):

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-02-19 02:10:22 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.


These are null sec characteristic elements.
It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs.

I think you're missing the point that the cost arbitrarily penalizes people for PVPing in a certain area of space with higher SP characters.

You can say "you shouldn't pvp there if you can't deal with the costs" but then you're only proving the point that clone costs are detrimental to pvp for higher SP characters in those two areas of space where podding is much more difficult to avoid.

There's no reason for adding a clone penalty. It just doesn't make sense on a per-character basis. The only justification I can see has to do with needing isk sinks as a whole, and adding an insurance scheme would deal with that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#127 - 2013-02-19 02:18:06 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.


These are null sec characteristic elements.
It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs.

Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization.

And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill):

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats


You don't seem to understand. It's not "real PVP" in Low Suck and Worthless Holes because they aren't part of the Great Null Sea Of Blues. If you aren't flying as part of an ultra elite 1500-3000 man ~leet pee vee pee~ alliance then nothing you could possibly do is "real PVP". If your "small gangs" aren't fleeting up with at least 200 in fleet then you just don't matter. Blink

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-02-19 02:20:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.


These are null sec characteristic elements.
It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs.

Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization.

And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill):

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats


You don't seem to understand. It's not "real PVP" in Low Suck and Worthless Holes because they aren't part of the Great Null Sea Of Blues. If you aren't flying as part of an ultra elite 1500-3000 man ~leet pee vee pee~ alliance then nothing you could possibly do is "real PVP". If your "small gangs" aren't fleeting up with at least 200 in fleet then you just don't matter. Blink

-Liang

What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#129 - 2013-02-19 02:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.


I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: I'm probably not a good personal barometer of this though. As I stated earlier in the thread, I have a series of (lower SP specialized) alts I use for null sec PVP... but on the flip side I never hesitated to take HG Pirate implants into WH space. I'm also semi space rich.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#130 - 2013-02-19 02:50:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I think you're missing the point that the cost arbitrarily penalizes people for PVPing in a certain area of space with higher SP characters.


I'm not missing anything. What area of space are we talking about? Again, if we read some statistic(http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats)

We see, for instance, as a single low sec system like Amamake has the same ships AND pods kill as a whole 0.0 region like Stain. But we don't ear people operating in Amamake area whining or demanding for a risk/cost redution cause they decided to live in a more dangerous area.

It's like people joining a structure grifding based gameplay and then complaining cause they have to grind structures.

It's like if people living in whormole complained for the lack of local. They don't, it's just a setting for that area of space.

EVE gameplay has risks, costs, death penalities. This is not something "detrimental to pvp" (as you say) is what make it fun and meainingful. Always been so, EVE players always dealt with this and everything is all more easy and cheap today.

And please, tell me who is with 100 milion sp character feeling as such an harsh problem having to spend 30 milions for a medical clone. I'll donate few hundred milions (pennies) to him and an "EVE for dummies" guide.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-02-19 04:32:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.


I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-)

Yeah, you missed the point.
See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#132 - 2013-02-19 05:06:26 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.


I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-)

Yeah, you missed the point.
See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often.


I didn't miss the point. I thought it wasn't worth responding to for the reasons already given. Although I'm glad to see you walking back that hate on WH space.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2013-02-19 05:29:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.


I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-)

Yeah, you missed the point.
See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often.


I didn't miss the point. I thought it wasn't worth responding to for the reasons already given. Although I'm glad to see you walking back that hate on WH space.

-Liang

I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space.
Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#134 - 2013-02-19 05:31:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space.
Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk?


In WH space? Yes.

-Liang

Ed: In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're at significantly more risk than in null sec.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2013-02-19 05:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Liang Nuren wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space.
Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk?


In WH space? Yes.

-Liang

Ed: In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're at significantly more risk than in null sec.

But you do most of your PVP in lowsec.
And you actively avoid nullsec... for some reason.

Regardless, we've let this argument get a little sidetracked.
Just because you're willing to jump through hoops (clone costs) doesn't make it a good game mechanic.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#136 - 2013-02-19 05:46:00 UTC
You don't pay attention much. I never said it was a good game mechanic - I was even specific about the ways that I bypass and avoid it. What I said is that I PVP with 100m SP characters (since people seemed to believe that 100M SP characters don't ever PVP). I even PVP with 100m SP characters in places where the clone (and much more importantly - the implants) is at significant risk.

But should clone costs be adjusted? Sure, but I think that once you go that far you may as well just remove the clone system as a whole.
Is it absolutely mandatory? No, I don't think so.
Is it something that inhibits PVP? Obviously, but I don't believe it's a major factor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#137 - 2013-02-19 05:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Just because you're willing to jump through hoops (clone costs) doesn't make it a good game mechanic.


Here's my bet: 100M ISK on the table says that if CCP turns clone manufacturing over to the players in a sensible manner, clones will become more expensive across the board. This is because the people with 100M SP clones have significantly higher reserves of ISK than people with 10M SP clones. People flying alliance super capitals will have their expenses reimbursed by alliance funds (the same funds that replace those billion-ISK-and-upwards ships that they're flying). People flying 100M SP carebear clones have huge incomes compared the frequency with which they have to replace clones.

I'll probably weasel my way out of paying that bet by pointing out that the method CCP chooses for implementing player-manufactured clones is foolish or designed by cretins (apologies in advance to CCP Greyscale or whoever designs the feature).

But the core of my bet is this: the people who PvP in high SP characters could care less about the replacement cost.

And my corollary is this: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Use your expensive high-SP alt for earning an income (why are all your SP invested in that one character? Did you think that more SP made your character better?). Start a new character and limit it to frigates and destroyers while you sort out your income stream.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
YuuKnow
The Scope
#138 - 2013-02-19 06:04:30 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.

If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?

Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.

Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.


Just wondering other opinions on this.


No. Its the state of PvP that keeps Non-PvPers from PvPing.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-02-19 06:53:07 UTC
Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this:

Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of...

Quote:
Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.

So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.

♥ CCP
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2013-02-19 07:07:03 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Here's my bet: 100M ISK on the table says that if CCP turns clone manufacturing over to the players in a sensible manner, clones will become more expensive across the board. This is because the people with 100M SP clones have significantly higher reserves of ISK than people with 10M SP clones.

That's not necessarily the case.

Mara Rinn wrote:
People flying alliance super capitals will have their expenses reimbursed by alliance funds (the same funds that replace those billion-ISK-and-upwards ships that they're flying).

Right... the point here is that people with more expensive clones tend to start flying tankier ships, since those ships get lost less often, and when the ship doesn't get lost the pod doesn't get lost either.
The clone cost system in this manner discourages players from PVPing in ships that blow up rather frequently, such as interdictors. Sure a 10M clone cost without implants seems kind of small compared to a 70M isk ship, but these things add up. As a result you see these people only flying ships like command ships, battleships, tech 3s, or capitals. They're effectively discouraged from flying smaller ships unless they either suck up the clone cost or get an alt (which itself costs money).

Mara Rinn wrote:
People flying 100M SP carebear clones have huge incomes compared the frequency with which they have to replace clones.

Right, which is why we're not talking about those people.

Mara Rinn wrote:
I'll probably weasel my way out of paying that bet by pointing out that the method CCP chooses for implementing player-manufactured clones is foolish or designed by cretins (apologies in advance to CCP Greyscale or whoever designs the feature).

Maybe. Maybe not. An insurance system as has been described before in this thread and others (where I pay the same clone cost, but my clone is covered for the entire 90 days or whatever after my payment no matter how many times I get podded) would be fair in that it wouldn't penalize players who PVP in specific areas of the game disproportionally, but it would also provide a still significant isk sink (and indeed it might even be a bigger isk sink than it currently is).

Mara Rinn wrote:
But the core of my bet is this: the people who PvP in high SP characters could care less about the replacement cost.

No, you'd be wrong about that. Many high SP players that do PVP in null ***** about their clone costs all the time, and it's generally agreed that the system needs to be fixed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)