These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Should ORE have their own dedicated hauler ships?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#21 - 2013-02-15 16:14:28 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
5k fleet bay?
you are aware that that's less than one cycle of ore from 1 ship. right?

Okay, then 8K fleet bay. ****, it's not like it's hard to alter imaginary numbers... Roll

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kathern Aurilen
#22 - 2013-02-15 16:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathern Aurilen
Karl Hobb wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
5k fleet bay?
you are aware that that's less than one cycle of ore from 1 ship. right?

Okay, then 8K fleet bay. ****, it's not like it's hard to alter imaginary numbers... Roll
It would have to be equal to or slightly larger then a jetcan

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#23 - 2013-02-15 17:21:47 UTC
Sunai Karvinoinas wrote:
Well, I see some need to reassign skill needs. "Warfare Link Specialist" should not be needed to train "Command Ship". This could be replaced for instance by "Advanced Ship Command".
Every new skill path will awake desires to get more than 1 ship for the skill path. In my humble opinion it would be better to merge skills instead of dividing them into more and more poor skill pathes.


I disagree there. T2 ships are supposed to be about specializing for a role, and Command Ships are supposed to be all about the links. It is one thing to fly a standard Battlecruiser without links, but the purpose behind bothering with Command ships at all should be to run multiple, enhanced links. Also, to fly a Damnation, because holy hell is that a sexy ship.

Sunai Karvinoinas wrote:
It was an example only. I'm not interested in a dedicated mining command ship personally.


I don't know that there is a need for one, but I'm a fan of new stuff to fly, see and do. I could certainly see the top end ORE industrial tree getting a battlecruiser sized ship designed to run an unbonused Foreman Link. I would go so far as to say that the industrial tree is perfect for what spirit behind the fleet command line was meant to be--- Logistic/Link support. Make it a utility ship meant to fill in several roles not really covered by the ORE ships--- Light Security, Hauling, Fleet Support.

Give me an oversized Noctis with a good size drone bay and Drone Bonus, with a Logi Bonus and fixed tractor bonus with the ability to run a foreman link. If you want to go all out, make a t2 command version that gets bonus to seige warfare and foreman links and can run 3 of them.
Kathern Aurilen
#24 - 2013-02-16 02:52:48 UTC
Sunai Karvinoinas wrote:
To answer the provided question in topic: Absolutely yes. +1


The racial skill path to subcapitals has been suggested by CCP-Dev as following:
Racial Frigate IV - Racial Industrial III + Advanced Ship Command V - Freighter I (maybe other skills will be needed too. So these will be kept for other freighter-like skill pathes in same way.)

So I see an ORE Capital Industrial skill to enter an Orca and further freighters/industrial subcapitals
ORE Frigate (called "Mining Frigate" yet) IV - ORE Industrial III + Advanced Ship Command V - ORE Capital Industrial I
But the orca isn't a capital, thats for the Rorquel. I say keep the orca where it is a command hauler. The Ore Capital Industrial should go to something to something like a ORE Freighter or ORE mobile mining or construction base or something capital sized.

Quote:
If you need fleet bonus or gang link activation, you may train other skills too. So the skill "Command Ship" may be necessary to use an Orca as industrial command ship but should not longer bound to the "Battlecruiser V" skill but to "Advanced Spaceship Command I" instead. No skill "ORE Industrial Command Ships" would be necessary anymore.
This mean reducing skill needs to use the Orca as hauler/freighter. Rebalance cargo/ore bay to more subcapital status and matching multiple Retriever/Mackinaw ore capacity.
I dont see that as a pre-req to getting in a orca, I see that as a way to access the bonuses for the gang links. and advanced ship command should only be applied to something capital sized or larger


Quote:
ORE Industrial Skillpath might be extended with production, refining, compressing and other skills to allow industrial modules/subsystems. ORE Industrial III and ORE Subsystems (Electronics V, Electronics Upgrades X, and so on) should be needed to enter a "modular industrial ship".
You can customize the ship to match special needs for working at WH-sites, PI or other industrial issues, for producing goods, hauling ships or research. The slots to place subsystems is very limited. CPU and power also. So you have to decide what profession the ship will assist most. Moreover you can refit for additional needs.
T2 versions of it might be more comfortable to fit but heavily more expensive. To enter a Tech2-path "ORE Industrial V" would be necessary beside several higher special skills for module/subsystem fittings.
I dont know about the modular-ness of Rorq. I was thinking a T3 version that you could fit up to do jobs like deploy as a mobile mining or manufacturing base or something.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#25 - 2013-02-16 12:18:43 UTC
I want a larger truck but not so large, freighter is too large, itteron is too small, I will settle with a middle ground without bonuses other than hauling capacity and speed.


but make it fittable not like freighters.

also I need a ship to haul 3 or 4 fitted battle ships in high sec, no bonuses or anything needed, just be able to haul those battleships.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#26 - 2013-02-16 13:13:26 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
also I need a ship to haul 3 or 4 fitted battle ships in high sec, no bonuses or anything needed, just be able to haul those battleships.

I suggested something along these lines, and the main thing that was pointed out was "Loot Pinata".

Friends
Sunai Karvinoinas
#27 - 2013-02-18 09:38:31 UTC
Please don't misunderstand my suggestions. :)

I want not change the already defined role for the Orca.
The only thing I want, is changing the entry level skill needs.
Many guys are using the Orca as a midsized hauler. This should possible after train a non racial skill path compareable to racial freighters. This may solve the often done suggestions for the midsized haulers, what I also support.
This means, if you can enter an Orca you can haul but not provide gang assistance unless you have trained these skills too.

In second it would be useful to rebalance the Orca ore bay to a massive larger size. 3-6 times the ore capacity of an Mackinaw should be possible to load.

To provide gang link support you should have to train a skill. "Command Ship" sounds to be the right one. Maybe the "Warfare Link Specialist" is too specialized for a more common skill path futurally. What's about a "Gang Link Specialist" Skill what will be needed to enter a more specialzed skill path after?

One of the problems seems to be, that several skill pathes leads to ships/chassis but only one for a whole path and it makes no sense to train the path further. So such a path is obsolete in my eyes because it rises desires to fill the nearly empty pathes.


The Orca could be the first ship what define its role while train special skills instead of designing ships for each role shape.

IMHO it sounds better to design new ships what matches the needs of professions what are underrepresented at the moment.
- ORE (Frigate, T2-Frigate, Industrial, Capital Industrial) -> Mining in all shapes and all places up to solo mining 0-Sec.
- Syndicate (Frigate and Industrial only) -> Smuggling in all shapes (armored ship compareable to money transporter; fast ship with small capacity but unscannable cargo bay; provider of special cloaking and stealth hull modules...)
- InterBus (Frigate, Industrial [Capital Industrials]) -> ultrafast transporters with small cargo (frigate style transporter with 1.000m³), ultralarge slow bulk transporters without slots (Mini-Freighters with up to 100k m³ common cargo).


I also support a subcapital industrial ship what contains a 500k m³ ship hangar only. An industrial ship should be limited to 100k m³ instead.
I support a subcapital ship what can be used as ore compressing ship.
I support container tug boats.
And so on.

I support dividing functionality to different ships by design or to one chassis type by subsystems. Means: I support "Industrial Subsystems" and modular, industrial ships.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-02-18 11:09:07 UTC
+1
I'd like to see at least one ORE hauler, perhaps an ore hauler (no pun intended). Could just be like a regular industrial except with an ore bay instead of a cargohold, but with a role bonus which allows cargo expanders to adjust its ore bay size. It would haul a lot more than an Iteron Mk V, but only ore.

I'd also like to see the ORE line of industrial platforms fleshed out a lot. There are tons of uses for industrial ships, not just hauling and mining. Already we have 2 industrial command ships, but we could use things like ship transport, fitting service, ammo/charge supplier (with some ability to send stuff to ships several KM away), and various devensive industrials that aren't rightly made for combat but have increased ability to defend themselves when it is forced upon them. Don't tell me ORE doesn't have any of this stuff.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-02-18 11:34:59 UTC
1. I think haulers should remain racial as they are, unless we're talking specifically mining hauler with huge ore bay and virtually no normal bay (though I think this would be done easier with containers).

2. Orca is used not just as a mining link ship, but quite often as a mobile base. The problem is, it needs mining skills to get, but also needs hangar, maintainance bay, cargo hold to perform its tasks. Imo, it would be logical to split the two, having Orca as a pure mining support vessel (ORE) and getting a separate command and control ship / mobile base for other purposes.

3. I believe we need a separate midsized general hauler (around 200k m3 maximum hold at about 300 million base cost) that completes the racial transport lines and plugs the huge hole between tiny industrials (40k m3) and massive freighters (1000k m3). This ship class should be separate from the ORE ships.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#30 - 2013-02-18 15:05:16 UTC
Sunai Karvinoinas wrote:
I want not change the already defined role for the Orca.
The only thing I want, is changing the entry level skill needs.

And CCP are already changing this in the summer expansion. When they split the BC and Destroyer skills, they are also reducing the entry requirements for the Orca, drastically. Its in one of the recent Dev blogs.

Please, for the love of God, don't be lazy and ask me for a link. Just jhave a look at the Dev Blogs.

Friends
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-02-18 18:38:50 UTC
I use mine as intend.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#32 - 2013-02-18 21:25:55 UTC
They do, it's called the Primera, the Devs just havent figured it out yet and made it happen, so it sits lifeless in peoples dock...a ship wothout a purpose. A large ore hold with and ore cruncher, that's all it needs...instead the Devs think turning billion ISK freighetrs into industrials is sooo much better. Oh well, no ORE Industrial Hauler coming anytime soon, I guess.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-02-18 21:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think it would be nice to have two variants for the industrial command ship line, both capable of performing the multitude of tasks made for industrial command ships, but streamlined more into the way people use the orca.

1.) Mining command
fits 3x gang links
has mining link and defensive skill bonuses
has asteroid scanner range role bonus
125mb/s drone bandwidth
moderate ore hold (like 75k), good-sized corporate hangar (like 40k), small cargo (like 10k)
ship maintenance bay with 4 slots for mining barges and maybe 100k additional space (for mining frigates?)
smaller and faster of the two

2.) Mining support
fits 1x gang links
enough midslots to fit command processors
has ore hold and defensive skill bonuses
has asteroid scanner and tractor beam range role bonuses
50mb/s drone bandwidth
large ore hold (like 200k), small corporate hangar (like 10k), moderate cargo bay (like 25k)
ship maintenance bay with 1,000,000m3 space for ships
fitting service
larger and slower of the two

As for the Primae, I've long had an idea how to make it useful:
Give it a 1500m3 commodities hold (less than an industrial) which goes up by 1500 for each level of the ORE industrial skill, even though this skill isn't required to fly the ship. Make the ship flyable on a trial account, but the ORE industrial skill not trainable on trial accounts (this might already be the case for both). This would allow new players a ship that can haul PI goods for them, likely in greater quantity than their own cheaply-fit industrial (if they have one), but would not offer much of a hauler to botters as it is heavily reliant on the ORE industrial skill for volume.

Then make the command center hold match size for how many command centers they can actually use, which means 1000m3 base, +1000m3 per level of the interplanetary consolidation skill.

Finally, would be nice to throw in a semi-remote tutorial agent that teaches how to do PI and gives away a free Primae at the end of the tutorial. New players would be told of this agent at some point in the regular tutorials, and they may choose to seek this agent out if they are interested.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-02-18 23:43:02 UTC
If anyone is to get a variety of hauling ships, it would be the Interbus corporation. And probe ships for Sisters of Eve. I think you can see the trend Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Kathern Aurilen
#35 - 2013-02-18 23:53:07 UTC
Galphii wrote:
If anyone is to get a variety of hauling ships, it would be the Interbus corporation. And probe ships for Sisters of Eve. I think you can see the trend Cool
I would love a set of NPC corp commissioned ships based on current empire designs to fill rolls like a fast delivery friget from interbus or something that a niche NPC corp is favored for.

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Kathern Aurilen
#36 - 2013-02-19 00:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathern Aurilen
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think it would be nice to have two variants for the industrial command ship line, both capable of performing the multitude of tasks made for industrial command ships, but streamlined more into the way people use the orca.

1.) Mining command
fits 3x gang links
has mining link and defensive skill bonuses
has asteroid scanner range role bonus
125mb/s drone bandwidth
moderate ore hold (like 75k), good-sized corporate hangar (like 40k), small cargo (like 10k)
ship maintenance bay with 10 slots for mining barges and maybe 100k additional space (for mining frigates?)
smaller and faster of the two
Sounds like it could be done with a near BC sized command ship with a maintenance bay

Quote:
2.) Mining support
fits 1x gang links
enough midslots to fit command processors
has ore hold and defensive skill bonuses
has asteroid scanner and tractor beam range role bonuses
50mb/s drone bandwidth
large ore hold (like 200k), small corporate hangar (like 10k), moderate cargo bay (like 25k)
ship maintenance bay with 1,000,000k space for ships
fitting service
larger and slower of the two
I like the idea of niche roll ships but ur pushing the idea of a capital command ship larger than a Frighter but work like a carrier, possibly deployed to operate at peak. The single gang link should be a laser optimaztion

No cuts, no butts, no coconuts!

Forum alt, unskilled in the ways of pewpew!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-02-19 02:17:22 UTC
Kathern Aurilen wrote:
I like the idea of niche roll ships but ur pushing the idea of a capital command ship larger than a Frighter but work like a carrier, possibly deployed to operate at peak. The single gang link should be a laser optimaztion
I think if you took out a lot of the excess specialized systems in the Orca and turned it into more of a hauler, you could come up with something as big as I'm talking without the hull being any larger than the current Orca. It's really just so that you choose whether you value the command stuff more or the hauling stuff more, while getting some of both either way. And as a side effect, you have the additional option to choose a larger, bulkier ship or a smaller, lighter ship.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-02-19 02:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Kathern Aurilen wrote:
Galphii wrote:
If anyone is to get a variety of hauling ships, it would be the Interbus corporation. And probe ships for Sisters of Eve. I think you can see the trend Cool
I would love a set of NPC corp commissioned ships based on current empire designs to fill rolls like a fast delivery friget from interbus or something that a niche NPC corp is favored for.
I'd definitely like to see more corporations get ships and/or modules made by them. I can see a destroyer-sized hauler made by interbus that could serve as a poor person's blockade runner--no covert ops cloak or warp strength bonus, but fast alining, small cargohold, and cheap.

Another thing I was thinking of that's slightly related is having NPC corp 'custom' modules that would be variations on the bland tech 1 modules. They would be priced like tech 1 and would not necessarily be better but just different. Some possible examples include:
* dual-resist hardener, granting 33% resist to two types
* long range stasis webifier, works at 20km but slows target only 33%
* dual-type ECM jammer, with 2.5 strength against 2 types and 1 strength against the other two
* specialized power diagnostic with either increased capacitor and decreased shield focus or vice versa
* partially energized armor plating with 27.5% resist (or else between the 20% and the 32.5%) and with 12 tf CPU cost
* nanofiber structure with altered agility vs. velocity ratio
* damage control with 60% structure resists (instead of 50%) but without the shield and armor resist bonuses
* custom propulsion module, which might come in a wide variety of flavors:
- - slower MWD without capacitor reduction
- - faster AB with partial sig radius increase or additional mass
- - slower MWD with less sig radius bloom
- - anti-webification prop mod that is more effective than an AB when you're webbed but less effective when you aren't
* propulsion power relay (overdrive injector that cuts capacitor instead of cargohold)
* shield extender+recharger with small bonus to shield HP and small bonus to shield recharge, less PG than extender
* dual-damage smartbombs or dual-damage missiles
* mostly-thermal laser crystal with very slightly reduced DPS
* medium range, medium damage hybrid (gauss gun?)
* autocannon with more optimal and less falloff
* weaker weapon upgrade that affects both the turrets and the missiles at the same time

Just brainstorming here. Alternatively, the modules could be priced more like tech 2 with higher attributes to match. And they might not really be priced quite like regular modules but would instead be given as gifts from missions or bought from the loyalty point stores. One nice thing for the economy here is that it gives another loyalty point and ISK sink which EVE could really use, and also gives a way to convert LPs and ISK (which cannot be destroyed) into minerals which can be destroyed.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#39 - 2013-02-19 11:12:21 UTC
Galphii wrote:
If anyone is to get a variety of hauling ships, it would be the Interbus corporation. And probe ships for Sisters of Eve. I think you can see the trend Cool

I generally agree. Im drawing a distinction that just got lost between an industrial, which sole purpose is to assist and support mining ops, and freighters, whose sole purpose is to haul cargo for (directly or by contract) traders between stations.

Ore miner progression: > T1 Venture > T2 Barge > T3 Exhumer
Ore industrial progression: > T1 Revamped Primera > T2 Orca > T3 Rorq

After one has trained to Orca, they can keep the Primera as the gopher, running from op to station, while Orca stays in the field. Once one gets to a Rorq, you can drop the Primera and run the Orca back and forth while the Rorq stays in the field.

I do believe Interbus should have it's own line of freighters for traders and contract "space truckers", they are the "premiere" NPC freight agency in Eve (much as ORE is the "premier" mining corp) ...light (so-so tank) but fast, with some stab and anti-ewar bonus to help avoid rats (real and NPC). It would require a whole new line ships, but the T2/T3 could easily fill the payload gap between the current top industrials and the freighters.

I also think there should be the main faction (4 racial lines) line of "haulers" that are more design and purposed for moving war materials and even whole ships to front line action..this can be done with mostly existing racial industrials.
>T1 Slow, but heavy tanked and lightly armed (a chance to survive until help arrives) > T2 Cloaky blockade runners (fast and stealthy, but lower payload) > Freighters/JF's (redesignated as haulers).

I like the idea of Sisters having a line of exploration ships...with a chain of exploration missions.
Sunai Karvinoinas
#40 - 2013-02-19 12:34:02 UTC
If I use "names" these will be examples only. I cannot know all available modules. Some of them could get new faction versions.

I support new faction modules to specialize racial haulers for professions.
- Scan Hardener (Smuggling, Intaki Syndicate)
- Cargobay Armor (Smuggling, Intaki Syndicate)
- HiSlot Cargo Extender (bulk transport, InterBus)
- MidSlot Cargo Extender (bulk transport, InterBus)
- ...

I support industrial subsystems for Tech2 ORE Industrial, also made by other factions, but fittable to a chassis designed by ORE. An industrial ship can fit one (ore two depending on size and usability), subcapitals up to four, capitals (Capital Ship skill needed additionally) more. To enter a real capital industrial ship should need more time than entering a Rorqal, what would be nerfed by this suggestion possibly.
- Ore Compressing Subsystem
- Power Station
- Freight Subsystem (InterBus)
- Mining Subsystem with small ore bay
- Drone Bay Subsystem
- Ore cargo subsystem (ORE)
- Armored Cargo Subsystem (Syndicate)
- Ship Hangar Subsystem (maybe racial instead of factional and fittable to a Tech3 cruiser too)
- Command Link Subsystem
- Logistics Subsystem
- Subsystems for PI / WH-mining
- Corp Hangar Subsystem
- ...

Subsystems can need further skills to engange/use them. Subsystems should be fittable independent of having skills to use them.
Some of the subsystems might be fittable to racial Tech3 cruisers depending of size and weight.
Some of Tech3 subsystems might be fittable to the ORE Tech2 Industrials depending of skills.
Some of the subsystems could have Tech2/Tech3 counterparts with different bonuses.
With given skills Tech3 subsystems could be fitted more dense (more per ship).
Some of the subsystems might not be possible to be combined.
And so on.

I support specialized cargo containers for ORE industrial tug-boats. Common cargo containers already exist in different sizes. A tugboat will pick them up in a skillable count and/or size.
- Ore Container
- Armored Container
- scanhardened containers
- secure containers
- huge containers
- Station and PI containers
- ...

In my opinion it's not necessary to mirror the racial industrial path to more factions. A summary of faction modules, factional ship designs, role bonuses and others might be enough. This does not negate my given suggestions above. Blink

But we have to confront us to one simple truth: "Industrial" means not hauling only. P